Vinyl doors?

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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1703 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 12:00 pm:    I write a lot of specifications for multi-family apartment projects. These projects have PVC windows and usually PVC swing or sliding doors leading to a small balcony. Typically I just add the doors to the 085313 Vinyl Windows (and Doors) section. I do this because the windows and doors are sourced from the same manufacturer. Is this what you do or do you separate them into two sections. If so what do you name and number the vinyl door section? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 12:47 pm:    08 15 00 Plastic Doors, and 08 32 16 Sliding Plastic-Framed Glass Doors are in MasterFormat. You could make up your own Swinging Plastic-Framed Glass Doors section number and title as well, or suggest it as a revision to MasterFormat. I don't typically specify vinyl windows and doors in the work I do, but I wouldn't necessarily rely on the reasoning you provide that the windows and doors are sourced from the same manufacturer and that's why they should be in the same section. If that was the case you'd need to come up with "ManuFormat" and start organizing the Project Manual by manufacturer. You'd only need 26 divisions for each letter of the alphabet, and then go from there ... 13 09 12 Milgard Windows and Doors. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1754 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 01:27 pm:    Rather than try to do all the additional editing of masters by merging the door and window sections, I would add a requirement to each of the sections that the products must be from the same manufacturer. That's what most contractors, subs, distributors, and manufacturers probably prefer anyway, so there would be little resistance to this requirement. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1704 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 01:48 pm:    John, It is actually easier to start with MasterSpec Section 085313 Vinyl Windows and just add minimal language for doors. Windows and doors are covered by the same standard ANSI/AAMA/NWWDA 101/I.S.2 and much of the language for the windows applies to the doors. I guess I view putting doors and windows in the same section like I do for Section 084113 Aluminum Framed Entrances and Storefronts where I have both vented windows (and storefronts used as windows) and entrance swing (and sometimes sliding) doors. Maybe one of these days I will separate the sections if I can ever figure out what number/name to call PVC doors. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 881 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 02:19 pm:    A peripheral question: are there reasonable quality vinyl storm/screen doors for residential use? We have two big box store standard aluminum doors, which are apparently made with wood composite cores, and they are corroding/exploding after about five years. Can you recommend some residential (or even light commercial) vinyl (or fiberglass) products I can look at? I want to not use wood or aluminum next time. Thanks John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1755 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 05:06 pm:    In my past research, I learned that products like windows, doors, tools and more that are sold by big box stores are often not the same as those sold by independent stores and distributors. Big box retailers demand cheaper pricing from manufacturers, meaning products are frequently more cheaply made. Even for well-known brands, this may be true. George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 882 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:08 pm:    John- Exactly. The carpenter who installed our current doors bought them so I don't know whose they are, but the big box stores usually carry [Name Brand Door] and [Name You Don't Know] made by the same manufacturer. Both seem to have the wood composite core covered by aluminum. The core is retaining moisture, expanding, and in some cases causing the aluminum cladding to corrode. That's why I'm looking for an alternative, and wondering if there is a vinyl or fiberglass without the wood core that is more durable. I'd be willing to do a light commercial, if I could find one. James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 242 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 12:52 am:    George, I had fiberglass windows and a sliding door (Pella) installed on my house near Galveston Bay about 11 years ago. When we moved away two years ago all were in great shape. They seem much stronger than vinyl and more dimensionally stable. They were certainly more expensive than "builder grade" aluminum windows but also considerably less than aluminum clad wood windows. IIRC the total cost averaged about $1,000 per opening installed in 2007. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1756 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 01:39 pm:    In the mid-2000s I specified doors for large-scale residential sound mitigation projects near airports. Although I have not vetted these products for a number of years, these folks made aluminum storm doors without the wood core which we found acceptable. They appear to still make them, though I can't say if there have been product modifications. Mon-Ray, Inc Larson Harvey Building Products Of course, caution applies in terms of the channel you are buying from, per the thread above.