Indoor Turf - Where?

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Author Message Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 333 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 03:10 pm:    We are working on SD documents at the present time and I need to identify a section and have a placeholder for indoor turf (most likely based on AstroTurf "Puregrass" or a similar product and system. I can't seem to find a location for it so need input! Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1779 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 03:29 pm:    It's kind of like carpet with a built-in pad, so how about 09 6819? Nina Giglio Senior Member Username: ngiglio Post Number: 11 Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 03:45 pm:    Best location is 096253 - Synthetic Turf Flooring Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1079 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 10:55 am:    Tracy, be careful when you specify indoor turf, I've seen it used on balconies and other wet areas, the turf backing gets wet and holds the moisture to the concrete, eventually causing deterioration to the concrete and the steel reinforcement. Lot's of litigation in Florida work because of that application. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 729 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:47 am:    Ditto that. Had a great renovation project in DC years ago where the stressing tendons disintegrated. Large, high price condo complex. I would think this could cause similar problems to those typically encountered at interior floors using resilient sheet. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 334 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 03:42 pm:    Thanks, everyone. This is actually going to be an indoor playing field at a sports medicine center. Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1833 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 08:01 pm:    So where does Artificial Turf go, I have a LEED project where the Owner wants to use it on the roof and penthouse decks? Its been 3 years since this series of posts, are any of my peers experts on this stuff and how is it considered for a LEED project? Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1484 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2017 - 12:57 pm:    Jerome, try 32 18 13 "Synthetic Grass Surfacing." Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1834 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2017 - 05:04 pm:    The LEED Consultant is saying Synthetic Grass can not be used in a LEED project, but the Owner want so use it. Any thoughts? Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 709 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2017 - 05:16 pm:    Not an issue I've faced before. I can perhaps understand if a LEED point could not be earned by the use of synthetic grass, but I'd be doubtful whether USGBC has a blanket prohibition against the use of synthetic grass, ie that a project could not achieve LEED certification if it contained synthetic grass--especially on a roof deck. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2017 - 05:18 pm:    LEED typically rewards "good behavior" rather than punishing "bad behavior". Synthetic grass can have a much better environmental footprint that a growing lawn. The lawn requires water, uses energy for mowing and creates emissions, and can require pesticides and fertilizers. Synthetic grass can be made with high post consumer recycled content and then recycled at end of its life. As with many building materials, there are few easy decisions. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1006 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 10:07 am:    I concur with Dave. Unless there is a VOC problem, there should be no problem using synthetic grass. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1835 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 10:22 am:    AoR advises that they need every LEED point they can get. This is a condo in Miami, the Developer wants to depict green grass on the penthouse deck as part of his marketing strategy. LEED Consultant is hostile, I found some errors in his specs (also MEP), so I am the bad guy. Developer wants to know why he can not obtain additional LEED points using synthetic grass. Michael made some good points which I will relay to the AoR. Thanks for all the input. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 12:39 pm:    To speak in favor of plants: living plants and their soil support animal and microbial life, provide retention of rain water, produce oxygen, and are the ultimate biophilic system. You can avoid the previously mentioned problems of grass by using other types of plants. If LEED credits are the issue, it doesn't matter what any of us think. Call the LEED adjudicators. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1626 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 02:05 pm:    Many schools in the Pacific Northwest are removing their natural grass play fields and installing synthetic grass. Though there is a higher first cost for synthetic grass, the maintenance is much less. Lately our summers are getting dryer and winters are getting wetter. It is becoming very difficult to maintain a natural grass field. Plus there is less liability if a kid steps in a gopher hole and breaks an ankle. I have worked on a few LEED schools any many WSSP (Washington Sustainable School Protocol) and neither have discouraged synthetic grass. Also, I do a fair bit of multi-family projects and there is an increasing need for a synthetic grass dog park on the roof. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1132 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 02:15 pm:    Like David I have worked on school ball fields with synthetic grass. We were still able to get LEED certifications. Sounds like the person advising your client either has an unreasonable bias or is not properly informed. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1007 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 04:13 pm:    Most (not all) of the LEED consultants are not necessarily well versed in building products and selection criteria outside of "does it get LEED points." I share the sentiment about using natural materials, but sometimes, green roof materials are not practical either in the short or long run. If this is an outdoor installation, it may negatively impact the credit for light reflecting roofing material. If it is an indoor installation, the critical question is about VOC and impact on indoor air quality which may end up impacting more than one LEED credit. I am intrigued by the notion that an innovative design credit may be obtained using the argument about using less water. At the end of the day, the Owner's desire for synthetic turf may have an impact on LEED certification. This is a two-margarita conversion with the Owner, the LEED consultant, and the AoR involved. It is not often that such discussions end without someone's ox being gored, the parties need to come to terms with what is really important. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 219 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2017 - 08:36 am:    Mr. Jordan's "two-margarita conversation" and "someone's ox being gored" deserve a special 4specs recognition on this dreary Thursday morn. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1731 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:31 pm:    Many users go for synthetic grass surfacing based on lower maintenance costs. However, sometimes that is because it is easier to ignore the needed maintenance for synthetics. The quality products use rubber crumb between the blades, often consisting of special blends, or even carefully layered applications. These require occasional vacuuming/replacement/relayering etc. The idea that you can install them and leave them be is decidedly wrong. I don't know the maintenance cost differential - it'd be interesting to know.