| Author |
Message |
Jeffrey Leemhuis, AIA, CSI, CCS, LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: jrlbarch
Post Number: 24
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 03:59 pm: |    |
Does anyone have input on where a simple motorized chain hoist would be specified? Somehow Division 41 just doesn't seem like the right location. |
Richard A. Rosen, CSI, CCS, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rarosen
Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:10 pm: | |
I just had a project go out for bid, 1 1/2 ton electric chain hoists were specified in Section 41 22 23 - Hoists. |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:24 pm: | |
I have a section for an electric one - in 41 2223 Hoists. The project is in DD, so I'm not sure of the particulars, but that's where I've placed it. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 06:02 pm: | |
I put these in a Division 11 Section when they are incidental to a building. To me, Division 41 is for larger-scale industrial applications. I note that MasterFormat 2010 includes 11 24 00 Maintenance Equipment (with my suggestion for Facility Fall Protection in it!) That may be a good spot. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 01:36 pm: | |
I agree with John about this -- even though the references in MasterFormat list Division 41 for "hoists", frankly, I think their reasoning is totally off the mark and not appropriate for a typical building application. I've had hoists in lots of situations: transit "car barns" (where the hoist is used to haul an engine out of something); at a laboratory, (to haul around lab equipment); in theatres (used for scenery) and in other non-machine shop locations. The 40's subgroup calls itself "process equipment" which to me, means oil refineries, electrical co-generation plants, and the like. Orphaning a building equipment hoist in with these numbers seems ridiculous to me. I've typically put hoists in Division 14 with conveying equipment, or Division 11 with maintenance equipment, depending on what the hoist is doing in the project. |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 107
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 02:35 pm: | |
So according to John and Anne's logic, MasterFormat is organized by project type rather than work results. If it's for an industrial or processing project, it goes in the 40s. If it's part of an "architectural" project, it goes in Divisions 02-33. So for hoists, we would now have "architectural hoists" in Div 14 and we would have "processing hoists" in Div 41 (would have to put some adjective in front of hoists if we are going to have them in two places).
We can reverse the logic. We have a processing plant that includes some elevators to move people. Are we now going to put those elevators in the 40s instead of Division 14 because we don't want to use any conveying equipment out of an "architectural" division for our processing project?
I would propose what is really going on is that we have that old way of thinking continuing to linger - these are my divisions and those are your divisions and we shall not ever cross over those lines.
The logic to locate hoists in Division 41 of course relates to the fact that material handling is a category of work results in which there are many different types of devices and equipment that can be used. They have been located in a separate division to allocate an adequate amount of space. It doesn't matter what type of project they are being used in.
Why locate handling equipment in the 40's? They probably relate most strongly to other subjects in the 40s, but that doesn't mean that they are not used in all types of projects just as elevators are used in all types of projects.
To accept this logic, one has to get over the old time thinking that divisions are organized by professions or project types. It's time to get over it and use the designated location for any work result we have in our project, no matter what project type it is or what division it is in. As the Canadians said as MasterFormat 2004 came out, "Its only numbers!"
The exception to this of course is when the hoist is an itegral part of a larger work result where it would be logical to include it with the larger work result. |
G. Wade Bevier, CCS, LEED-AP BD+C, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wbevier
Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 04:37 pm: | |
I have had a similar situation with art room kilns in middle and high school situations.
The MasterFormat 2004 choices according to the anticipated "work results" were brick kilns in Div 04 or Process Kilns in Div 42. I developed a Div 11 section for these as "Other Equipment". With the release of the MasterFormat 2010 there is now a MF10 section (11 95 13)for Art Room Kilns.
I did this primarily because, although the Construction Document are intended to be written as Work Results, they are also the Contract Documents and are addressing the Contractor. Knowing that they were still in the process of learning the "new" organizing tool it seems prudent to not include "orphan" sections that in larger project with multiple manuals might even be is a separate manual all together, tucked away after the work results had been described for the site work in the DIV 30 series.
This eliminates the possibility of a scramble during the construction involving finger pointing between the parties as to who was supposed to catch which part of the design in the documetns to be included in the bid. This seems to go on enough without creating the situation seemingly on purpose.
Technically it would be the fault of the bidder for not picking this up but why "muddy the waters" by giving the impression that the design team is trying to "hide" parts of the design components via a technicality.
It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of open communications and team oriented transparency to not attempt to make the documents clear to the party to which they are addressing.
I have also had a requirement for a overhead hand hoist assembly to be added to an mechanical mezzaine and converted my Div 11-MF95 section to a "suitable" Div 11 section when I migrated over to MF04, for the same reasons. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 01:36 pm: | |
Bob:
the title of the 40's Specifications Group is "Process Equipment Subgroup". if that title is remotely accurate, there is nothing there to indicate to a bidder than a simple chain hoist would be located in that group of divisions, and I do think its completely inappropriate in that location, using much the same reasoning that Wade uses above.
I see a chain hoist (incidental to the building use, typically fixed in one location) as more appropriately placed in Division 14 "conveying equipment" and there is plenty of room for it somewhere between 144000 and 147000.
Divisions are clearly organized by professions, or something. Otherwise we wouldn't keep moving skylights from Division 08 to Division 07 and back again. Our bidding documents need to be transparent enough that a typical bidder for our project type can figure out the road map for the project, and putting a non-process equipment item in a process equipment group isn't going to move that idea forward.
a comparable situation would be in what is called 41 50 00 "Material Storage" and there is a section 41 53 19 for "flat files". Surely you don't mean to put architectural flat files in that location? Of course not -- there is an alternate number "12 51 19" for "commercial filing cabinets"
Unless the next go around of MasterFormat retitles the 40s something other than "Process Equipment" I can't see ANY rational reason to use those numbers for my non-process equipment projects. |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 108
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 05:47 pm: | |
"The 40's subgroup calls itself "process equipment" which to me, means oil refineries, electrical co-generation plants, and the like." Seems to me that many "typcial buildings" have complicated processes - laboratories, hospitals, come quickly to mind. Other "typical buildings" with processes that may require a hoist might include vehicle repair shops, warehouses, etc. I certainly don't agree that "process equipment" is limited for use in large industrial type proects.
"Divisions are clearly organized by professions, or something. Otherwise we wouldn't keep moving skylights from Division 08 to Division 07 and back again." What do professions have to Divisions 07 & 08, or for that matter Divsion 03-14? Skylights obviously relate strongly to roofs and to openings - it is a judgement call as to which is the strongest relationship.
"a comparable situation would be in what is called 41 50 00 "Material Storage" and there is a section 41 53 19 for "flat files". Surely you don't mean to put architectural flat files in that location?" The explanation for 41 53 00: "Includes cabinets, files, and racks for INDUSTRIAL processes." The explanation for 12 51 00: "Includes movable interior furniture for OFFICE applications." That would be offices in a "typical building" or in a processing plant. |
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