Spacing of Section Numbers

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Author Message John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 514 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 05:10 pm:    Well, it's been a couple years since the spacing of six digit Masterformat was discussed. ( http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/1097/1061.html) I'd be interested to know what folks have settled on for numbers within the text of a Section, and for file naming (discounting the 8-digit anomolies). We have to make this decision now. Possibilities are endless, but I'm guessing most are probably using one of these for text: 012345 01 2345 01 23 45 and for file names: 012345 What did you came up with? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 598 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 07:15 pm:    I use xx xx xx for both section names and file names. Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 213 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 07:23 pm:    Same as William. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 135 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 09:30 pm:    Same here. No problems yet. I've tried the others, and the former just seems easier to read. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 206 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:50 pm:    I'm sticking with the xx-xxxx format, for both section numbers and filenames. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 367 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 07:18 am:    Use 012345 for Section and file names; verbally use 01-2345. No problems; readily accepted by all in this A/E shop. Shedrick E. Glass, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: shedd_glass Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 08:02 am:    Using XX XXX for both section & file names. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 351 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:06 am:    Same as Ralph...I've only heard one grumble from a mechanical engineer and that had to do with what he perceived as a multiplication of Sections like pipe insulation. Wanted to know why we changed everything. I explained and now it's OK. But nothing about the new numbers or their format, just about having to learn them anew (and that's from me) Tracy Van Niel Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 175 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:50 am:    We are using the same spacing as William. I include extensions in the file name (like bp2 or cd) to let me know when I've finished editing a section. Whenever I have a section that I've started editing and have a question on, then a "q" goes in the extension. That way I know at a glance which sections are completed and which ones have questions. G. Wade Bevier, CSI, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: wbevier Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 10:00 am:    We are using the (xx xx xx)three sets of paired digits as well. We are trying to get our consultants to avoid the decimal and extension numbers to accomodate the in-house CA and submittal worksheets that will be used during construction. This latter issue seems to be harder to accomplish but I think we are making some headway. Jim Brittell Senior Member Username: jwbrittell Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 01:17 pm:    We're using XX XXXX for section names and XXXXXX for file names. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 599 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 02:00 pm:    Interesting. I had one of our MEP consultants use xxxxxx And those are hard to read. Especially when you are looking for a section that is perhaps 222000 or something hard to see and numbers nearby ar visually similar. Also, some of them use long lists of 'related sections' and seeing those line up under each other is rough to see. file names are one thing, but in the text when you are going for visual display, the unspaced/unbroken string of numbers is rough. (At least the MEP did do MF2004 - actually, I have had quite good luck with them. I had only one local group balk at this saying they were still looking at legal implications through the middle of this summer and appealed directly to our principals who let them by. But then their came over anyway in 04, so much for legal implications -grin!) Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 352 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 02:23 pm:    "legal implications", huh...that reminds me of the doctor who, when told his patients where going to an all-natural diet, stated "you don't know what the medical implications of such a diet are..." Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 152 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:01 am:    xx xx xx or if forced xx xxxx Deep Down inside, I always want to space the groups between the salad and dinner fork on the left side of the plate: division (level 1), salad fork, level 2, dinner fork, level 3 and Level four. There has been a move afoot to move level four to the right side near the soup spoon or horizontally over the plate and parallel to the dessert fork and spoon with the bowl of the spoon pointing to the left, the tines of the fork pointing right and level 4 equidistant between the two. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:15 am:    Marc: So where do you put the chop sticks? <g> Ron Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 153 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:22 am:    Although not an expert (I play one on TV) I would suspect that chopsticks should be placed front of you above the plate, parallel to the edge of the table, with the narrow ends on the hashi oki. The hashi oki is the the little platform you rest the tips of the chopsticks on. Hashi Oki to the left I assume for all of you right handers Greta Eckhardt, AIA, CCS, CSI New member Username: greta_eckhardt Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 04:16 pm:    I am now in the process of converting office master sections to MasterFormat 2004 and have two comments: 1. By using the three pairs of digits with spaces between, we will have numbers that are easy to say (such as O-nine, twenty-one, sixteen for 09 21 16). I think this way of labeling them on the documents themselves will help communication. 2. While I think MF04 is quite good in many respects, I am not willing to use eight digits for any section. I am afraid this means disobeying dogma when I decide to call a certain document "Section 09 21 17 - Gypsum Board Shaft-Wall Assemblies". I am concerned that we need a consistent number of digits for the future when specifications become part of a data base, and 8 digits would be wasting cyberspace. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 191 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 09:26 pm:    Friday MasterFormat Haiku The hand with five digits Built the ancient garden wall Specified with eight. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 152 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:13 am:    Marc stayed at a Holiday Inn Express at some point in time. Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:17 pm:    It has been over 2 1/2 years since this topic has been addressed within this "thread". With the "slow times" right now, we are making our move to MF04 - full service firm. I have seen quite a variation in the approaches to Section Number spacing through various thread discussions. My personal preferance is for XX XXXX. I feel that this gives emphasis to the Division Number which I feel should make it easier to process the overall location of the Section in the context of the project. For those of you who have been actively using MF04 do you see any movement to a consensus on how the Section Numbers are spaced. What is working for you? Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS LEED AP Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:22 pm:    XX XXXX works best for our public projects. Jerry Tims Senior Member Username: jtims Post Number: 59 Registered: 04-2005 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:23 pm:    XX XXXX here, with an occassional XX XXXX.XX thrown in for effect. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 301 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:28 pm:    XX XX XX for all of our projects. But we do use XX XX XX.XX for file naming only, for variations on the narrowscope sections. (We drop the ".XX" in the hard copy printing) Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 169 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:28 pm:    XXXXXX here exclusively (99%). We do not use .XX. There is enough flexibility in MFO4 to avoid this format, however I have used it sparingly to append forms to the end of a section (RFI Form or Substituion Request Form). Only one client uses XX XX XX. Use nonbreaking space between pairs of numbers. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 333 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:33 pm:    Still using xx-xxxx. I know it's really cool and European to have a lot of blank spaces, but I'd rather know which numbers are connected. But I have started writing phone numbers like this: 123 456 7890 Bob Woodburn, RA CSI CCS CCCA LEED AP Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 280 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 04:36 pm:    The bulk of the work in this office is for two major clients, both of which have promulgated their own master guide specs in MF 2004; both use XX XX XX. (One is the DoD's UFGS system, which numbers some sections in a 10-digit format (XX XX XX.XX XX). And sometimes on these government jobs, Division 01 is in MF 95 while the others are in MF 2004, or vice-versa. The government may furnish the front end in MF2004, our design-build partner asks for the rest in MF95 due to demand from its subs, so we end up with a mix of 5-, 6- and 10-digit numbers. Personally I think XX XXXX would make most sense, but usually I don't make the decision. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1025 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 08:33 am:    Still using 12 34 56 in titles, but 123456 in file names. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 04:00 pm:    x x x x x x John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 431 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:18 pm:    Should the spaces in XX XX XX or XX XXXX be ordinary spaces or should they be "hard" spaces to prevent the Section number from breaking at the end of a line? If a hyphen is used instead of a space, such as XX-XXXX, what sort of hyphen should it be? Again, the concern is the breaking of the Section number at the end of a line. This is probably a matter of the what the word processing program does when the hyphen character is typed. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 334 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:25 pm:    A non-breaking space or a non-breaking hyphen should be used to keep the number on a single line. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 170 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:25 pm:    Should be nonbreaking space. Use SHIFT+CONTROL+SPACE BAR to insert a nonbreaking space. Nonbreaking space character will show when SHOW/HIDE is on and dissappear when SHOW/HIDE is off but all y'all you know this already. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 219 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 02:09 pm:    XX XX XX in Sections XXXXXX for file names Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 747 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 04:43 pm:    XX XX XX (and sometimes XX XX XX.XX) in Sections XXXXX (and sometimes XXXXXX_XX) in filenames For nonbreaking hyphens in MS Word, you use the CTRL+SHIFT+DASH keys. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP RLGA Technical Services www.specsandcodes.com Christopher E. Grimm, CSI, CCS, LEEDŽ-AP, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 186 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 04:55 pm:    ditto of Wayne and guest: XXXXXX, and no .XX at first it was due to peer pressure, and we tried other ways too in this office because 6 digits all strung together looked long and weird - but surprisingly, not much later, the old XXXXX numbers started to look strangely short when we would encounter them. it is nice to do it one way and do it consistently, especially if you use any sort of database or other reference to section numbers. We have never had any snags with XXXXXX, and we have with the other methods at times. Christopher E. Grimm, CSI, CCS, LEEDŽ-AP, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 187 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 05:00 pm:    Does it bother anyone else that Masterspec level 5 sections do not sort properly because they leave out the decimal? e.g. prep for re-roofing, and several others - they appear at the END of a file folder window. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1026 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 05:47 pm:    Yes, it does bother me. I've suggested they review/consider a method that would cause them to sort in proper order, but I'm not sure what the impediments to doing that are. Spaces work. Christopher E. Grimm, CSI, CCS, LEEDŽ-AP, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 188 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 06:28 pm:    I've mentioned it to them too, but I guess they might be backlogged a little. Specification Writer Junior Member Username: specification_writer Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2009 Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 10:22 am:    XX XXXX for section numbers (w/hard space) XX_XXXX for filing sections Definitely no 8 digit section numbers. Ctrl+space bar inserts a hard space in Wordperfect. Specification Writer Architect Washington, D.C. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 375 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 08:00 am:    All right. It's time for y'all to order the T-shirt: [link removed] Christopher E. Grimm, CSI, CCS, LEEDŽ-AP, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 189 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 08:39 am:    Would make a great gift, but certainly not for me (right? ...right...?)