Insulating heavy use back of house sp...

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Author Message Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 196 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 02:11 pm:    We do a lot of loading dock/back of house spaces with CMU walls for durability. Insulating these walls is a struggle to justify from a cost, sf, and durability standpoint. Besides an insulated double withe wall, what else is everyone else doing? Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 307 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 03:15 pm:    I don't see that specific condition often, but in a similar application, I have clients who insulate the cells in CMU stair walls. This is usually the foamed-in-place type, applied under pressure through drilled holes. A simpler but less effective option would be to use insulation inserts that come in the CMU units. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 47 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 11:13 pm:    I recommend radiant heating for spaces that have massive air exchanges with the outdoors. AS far as foamed-in-place insulation of CMU goes, in our left coast seismic zone it's a non-starter. If the walls aren't fully grouted CMU, then there is reinforcing and grout 4 feet o.c. each way Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP Senior Member Username: edueppen Post Number: 58 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 08:24 am:    I recommend air sealing the interior walls that separate the loading dock areas from the rest of the building. Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 197 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 03:18 pm:    So we typically have radiant heating and they are sealed, but from a thermal standpoint they are "lacking". The only comfort is that they are mass walls, but at R1-ish that is not much to be proud of. We have furred out the walls in the past with 2" XPS and gyp/studs, but the durability of the stud wall is always a concern. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 06:32 pm:    You wouldn't need to go double wythe would you? Why not just add insulation and a 4" block veneer to the outside? For that matter, add EIFS to the outside ... or continuous insulation, a thermally-broken cladding support system, and your cladding of choice. I've seen, but never used, this Insultech insulated concrete block system from Echelon before. Maybe it fits the bill? https://www.echelonmasonry.com/performance-upgrade-options/insultech-system Does it have to be CMU for the walls? Could you use precast concrete insulated sandwich panels? Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 48 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 09:42 pm:    Guest posted use of EIFS. I want to say "outside the box", but I suggest inside the box. Use single wythe CMU at the loading dock, garbage room, etc. Then apply EIFS (Would it be IIFS?) to the interior surfaces of the surrounding walls of the conditioned space. Ceiling insulation is another topic, but it's pretty simple if the radiant heating units are suspended. Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 04:46 pm:    Keep in mind that the IECC requires insulation between conditioned spaces and semi-conditioned and unconditioned areas. Ron Beard Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 464 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 07:19 pm:    Keep it simple: Consider rigid XPS (Styrofoam Scoreboard) with metal Z-furring (ClarkDietrich) and covered with gypsum wallboard panels. Strong (secured directly to the CMU), good R-value, minimal thermal break, cost effective, and fast insulation. Both foam and Z-furring strips are available in 2", 2 ˝”, and 3" thicknesses. Use with gypsum wallboard panels of your choice; standard, high-abuse, high-performance, glass-mat, etc. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Dan Helphrey Senior Member Username: dbhelphrey Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2018 Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 03:42 pm:    I generally use plywood instead of gyp. bd. in spaces where vehicle or heavy dolly impact is a possibility. Another thing I have done, in a working shop setting, is applied pegboard directly to the studs, but this was only above 34" with workbenches all around below that. Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 198 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Friday, October 25, 2019 - 04:53 pm:    My issue with the metal Z-furring is that it defeats the purpose of the insulation. It reduces the R-value by about half. Almost 70% if it is spaced 16" oc. Marc Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 531 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 25, 2019 - 04:58 pm:    BANG. got it in one shot....that is why we have clips....and "green girt" and other sim products. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, October 25, 2019 - 05:52 pm:    Marc, by "we" do you mean Deltek/Avtiru/MasterSpec, or architects/specifiers/designers? Should I expect a new section, 070543 "Cladding Support Systems," in the next quarterly update? Marc Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 532 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 25, 2019 - 06:37 pm:    by we I mean architects and contractors. and no we are not planning a separate section for that in the near future.. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 50 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Friday, October 25, 2019 - 10:54 pm:    This is a conversation where drawings would be useful. Imagine a loading dock room. The docks and doors are on the East Side. The wall would be CMU. The other walls would be CMU with an "interior grade" EIFS system on the interior side (opposite the loading dock). There would be some thermal leakage where interior partitions intersect the CMU walls forming the enclosure of the loading dock, but that would not amount to much. The entire loading dock space would present a CMU surface. Ron Beard Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 467 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 02:09 pm:    Brian, what is the source of the performance data you listed. 70% is a rather high figure and I would like to review it further. What would that reduction figure look like with 24" spacing and a thermal break between the CMU and the furring strip? Thanks. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 199 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 02:43 pm:    Google “Effective R value Ashrea 90.1”. There a lot of options including this... https://www.bdmd.com/effective-insulation-r-values-in-steel-vs-wood-framing-types/ But ultimately, my source is the actual language from Ashrea 90.1 James Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 05:53 pm:    You are going to need a "thermal barrier" between any plastic foam insulation on the interior of the CMU wall and the interior space which usually means 1/2-inch gyp board. I think what I would recommend is to glue mineral wool insulation to the interior face of the CMU and then put a layer of 1/2- to 3/4-inch plywood up using some sort of fastener that would go through the plywood and insulation into the CMU. The plywood would be sacrificial so that when it got dinged up, you could replace it. If flame spread is a problem, use FRT plywood. You probably only need to go up 6 to 8 feet above the floor.