Discounted specifications

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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1668 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 04:37 pm:    I get the occasional request to discount my specification writing fee because the new project will be just like the previous project or that they will share many of the same sections. How do you politely handle this situation? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1166 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 04:44 pm:    Ask them to give you those instructions in writing and then have them send you the Record Specifications in Word for the previous project. Change the headers and footers and send it back to them. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 396 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 05:10 pm:    Take the client to a restaurant. When you order, ask for a discount because, after all, the entre is just like the previous meal you had there and shares many of the same ingredients. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1669 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 07:04 pm:    I recently fell for it. The architect asked for a discount and assured me that the school project was just like the previous school project that we did for that same school district. Well surprise surprise, it was not. Now I am going after additional services. Next time when told the project will be just like the previous project I will tell them that my fee will be just like the previous project. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 730 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 07:27 pm:    Depends on the client and the relationship with the client and how bad you want the project. I discount it sometimes, if it is withing 6 months of the previous project and include the verbiage, "Discounted fee is based on the expectation scope will be substantially similar to Project X. If scope differs, as determined by XX Company, additional services will be invoiced at hourly rate". Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 403 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 10:04 pm:    My approach is similar to Robin’s. Your mileage may vary of course! J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1040 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 10:36 am:    This situation highlights how important it is to "fence the project"; i.e., establish a "well-defined" scope of work which can be used to develop a strategy for requesting additional fees should the need arise. In developing a preliminary section count, I understand that some sections I check off will not be used, but others will take their place. I am rarely off by more than 5 percent. When the section count begins to be significantly more than 10-15 percent above what I estimate, I consider a request for additional services. I do like Robin's suggestion. A "fence" for this scope might include an estimate of the number of sections that are simply copies (change headers and footers) and an estimate of the number of sections that will be "new." You might even try to estimate the sections that you will generate by editing a master and the sections that you will have to cobble together from other sources. We recently developed specifications with a regular client for a particular hotel brand in College Station, suburban Houston, and Galveston. The client, of course, wanted a "discount." Despite being based on the same prototype, these projects has some differences. The one in surbaban Houston was very similar to the prototype with the typical site adaptations. The exterior for the one in College Station had to be modified because of architectural guidelines requiring a certain amount of masonry cladding. The one in Galveston was right on the beach and required significant modifications to exterior systems to withstand wind loads and debris-impact-resistance. As I told my assistant, they are all the same, but they are all different. A number of years ago, when I was "captured" with a local architectural firm, we were developing a "lifestyle center." I developed specifications for the first two buildings, and when starting on the third fell for the "it's just the same." Well, this particular building had an interior service corridor with fire-rated partitions and doors (the previous ones had been typical strip center buildings-cold, dark, shells- without interior corridors). I relied on the project team for the project scope and didn't look at the Drawings myself. We did not catch the problem until the Contracting was pricing the Work. Big OOPS. Lesson learned? Focus on what is different, not what is the same. It may be minor enough not to make a difference, but the differences between what is required for a building right on the Gulf Coast and a project 100 miles inland results in significantly more work. A single-story commercial shell (walls with doors and roof) will be very different from a two-story commercial shell with interior finishes, elevators, stairs, and restrooms. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 397 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 02:05 pm:    Peter's same but different recollection reminds me of something I learned while still in school at Southern Illinois University, a university with two campuses. The campus architect for one of the campuses mentored me in an independent study. He described how, to "save money", the State's Capital Development Board hired an architect and told the firm to use the same building design on each campus. Well, you know what happened... -- To fit the context and economic realities of the several campuses, one used unit masonry and the other precast. -- While only a few hundred miles apart, they were in different climates zones and seismic zones. -- Pedestrian and vehicular circulation patterns required one floor plan to be mirror image of the other. -- One used steel frame, the other concrete because of available suppliers and local costs. -- One had a central heating/cooling plant, the other required it's own equipment. -- They used different versions of the codes. AHJ in the two locales had different interpretations. -- One had an auditorium, the other didn't. -- In the middle of design development, one of the two changed from a classroom focus to a research lab focus, with considerably different services required. You get the idea. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1672 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 03:33 pm:    Peter said I should focus on what is different in the project and not what is the same. Next time I will ask the architect the following: - What percentage of the previous drawings will be reused for the new project? - Will the details be the same? - Will the finishes be the same? If not what is different? - Will the new project be under the same code requirements as the previous project? - Will the same team members be involved, both internally and outside consultants? - Will the same owner's project manager/representative and contractor (if GCCM) be the same? - What new materials or design features will be in this new project that will distinguish it from the old project? - Will the new building have a similiar configuration or will there be additional rooms (for example adding a gymnasium)? - Are there any "Lessons Learned" from the previous project that will be applied to this new project? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2155 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 03:47 pm:    I might turn some questions around: What details will be different? What finishes/materials will be different? Asking that way turns the mindset to the new building. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, May 28, 2018 - 05:05 pm:    If new project is "just like" the previous project, then why isn't A/E just paying their admin to overlay new project headers on previous project PDF pages? Oh...and not pay you anything at all? Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 733 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2018 - 07:35 pm:    Guest: I am sure a lot of architects do that. At least this one is trying to do the ethical thing. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 348 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 04:28 pm:    David, I think the "lessons learned" part is especially important. I ask for the approved submittals before starting another project, which is supposed to be "just like the last one". - Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 11:58 am:    Robin - When is initially (and flippantly) presenting scope of work as "same as previous," when in reality, differences exist...i.e., when does same=different? I'd say leave me out of it; I have better things to do than extend (nearly) same level of effort for half (or less) of the fee...although I recently did so (for 1/3 of proposal) for "good" A/E client, when their public entity client scrutinized by proposal breakdown (i.e., cherry-picked) to reduce. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1675 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 01:32 pm:    I am also trying to think of good strategies for additional services when the scope or materials of the new project changes. I believe the whole problem lies with architects believing that specifications are just (and I hate the word) "boilerplate." They do not realize that specifications are custom tailored for each individual specific job. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 247 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 04:25 pm:    The only way to demonstrate your belief in the value of your work is to walk away from clients who do not value it. If you don't, then you are proving they are right every time. There aren't that many people out there who do what you do and do it well. Gues (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 06:53 pm:    David W. - I'd end up walking away from every project...and have no work! Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 734 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 06:58 pm:    Dear Gues: I hope you are joking. Either way, i call BS. The spec writer as the "overworked, underpaid martyr" persona is a disservice to the profession. I have walked away from plenty of projects with low-ball fees and continue to thrive. Especially in this economy. If specifiers are accepting work with lowball fees, then perhaps we need to discuss business management principles, marketing etc at the next SCIP meeting to help our profession get out of that rut! Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 735 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 07:03 pm:    Also, Gues, I turn away 1-3 jobs per week, so if you are looking for more work, please feel free to email me and i will refer people your way. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 398 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 09:17 pm:    There may be an opportunity hidden in the "same as before" syndrome. When negotiating for the first job, inquire whether there might be follow-up projects. If the architect's client has multiple work down the line, suggest that the architect pitch the client on developing a master spec for their ongoing projects. It is a good, strategic move for the architect, and an extra service you can profit from. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1044 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 08:37 am:    I am often tempted to incorporate a "first time discount" to new clients. I always stop myself with the following thoughts: + First-time clients require more work as they get used to me and I get used to them. + When first-time clients become repeat clients, they often expect fees that are lower on those subsequent projects. My low ball fee I offered to get a new client becomes a discount fee on subsequent projects. I will sometimes offer a lower fee after an initial fee to a repeat client, but I have walked away from unreasonably low fees. I sometimes flinch, but like Robin, I am usually very busy. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1676 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 03:42 pm:    I have come to the conclusion that giving any sort of discounts is a bad idea. The client will then expect your future specifications to be that cheap from then on out. I once offer at 10 percent discount if the client paid withing 30 days. They paid MUCH later and paid me the discounted fee. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 241 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2018 - 09:15 am:    Time for some Friday morning snarky-ness. My clients and their contractors have often discounted my specifications, i.e. disregarded them. At some point though many have come to appreciate their full value. :-) David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 248 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2018 - 08:32 am:    One indication of a problem is the client who contacts you in the 11th hour wanting "a spec." It means they 1) think project manuals can be thrown together in just a few days or 2) they failed to plan their deliverables properly and probably do not have specification fees in their budget or both. In this scenario, the specification consultant will not have time to apply best work practices and will be blamed for bad results. These are the easiest clients to walk away from. It is surprising how gratifying it can be to say no to a known bad situation. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1891 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2018 - 11:57 am:    David, my friend perhaps you have not prepared specifications in the past 10 years in So. FL. for South Florida Architects, who consider specifications evil. When specs in building documents is in the minority, as it is in So Florida, it is difficult to walk away from any specification job, So. FL. specifiers have to learn from experience. No specifier entrenched in So Florida walks away from a client who wants specs with those conditions, those conditions are the norm, you learn how to adapt. I have been preparing specs for so long in So FL that I occasionally walk away, sometimes even run away. If only I knew 20 years ago what I know today. Welcome to So. FL. construction. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1892 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2018 - 12:12 pm:    The recently completed 82 story Panorama Tower in Miami, has no specifications, well that's not true I think the Developer included 5 WP spec sections. Its the tallest building in Florida and I believe south of Manhattan, and its a rental, no threat of condo litigation here. The Developer is well known and successful, seldom includes specs in his buildings which are many. At one time I was asked to prepare an Outline Spec for the project which they intended to use for construction, I declined, ran away. The same firm is planning a 90 story in the same area. Actually I prepared specs for same developer 10 years ago for a high rise that was never built. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 249 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2018 - 01:21 pm:    No, Jerome, I have never specified a project in SFL. You have painted such a grim portrait of that region I suspect most 4specs followers would avoid it. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1893 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2018 - 02:34 pm:    What can I say David, I am an honest guy, one of my many faults is my honesty, and being nice, perhaps the adage "Nice Guys Finish Last" was written for me, it will probably be on my tombstone.