| Author |
Message |
Brian Payne, AIA
Senior Member
Username: brian_payne
Post Number: 127
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 05:37 pm: |    |
So I need to spec a foreign product that may only be distributed through a single U.S. Product Rep. I typically have a rule against listing product reps in my spec, but in this case do I relax my rule.
Would you recommend...
Manufacturer: Imakestuff, Inc, Distributed by Imarkupstuff, Inc; Product Name. |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 632
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 05:55 pm: | |
When something is foreign, really obscure, or the custom result of a lot of coordination with a product rep, I list the product as I usually would and add:
Information regarding Imakestuff Products is available from:
Imarkupstuff, Inc.
$$$ Change Order Blvd.
Village of One Percenters
State of Excess, Zip
1-800-Cha-Ching |
user (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 05:56 pm: | |
Why would the architect / interior designer / project designer select a foreign product? |
Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wilsonconsulting
Post Number: 247
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 06:55 pm: | |
Similar to Steven, I include a listing separate from the manufacturer in cases like this, identifying the entity as "Owner's Representative" or "Source" or "Authorized Dealer" depending on their specific role & relationship.
Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP
Wilson Consulting Inc
Ardmore PA |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1636
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 07:25 pm: | |
I too only list product representatives for unusual items. This is a way of mitigating the inevitable phone calls/emails later on.
It really frustrates me to to foreign products specified on green projects. I have worked on a few projects where we (me) tried hard to source local (500 mile) products only to have the interior designer specify finishes from Europe or Asia!
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Brian Payne, AIA
Senior Member
Username: brian_payne
Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 07:37 pm: | |
In this specific case it’s tile. Why foreign? Limiting our options to just us manufacturer’s would limit a significant amount of options.
Authorized dealer is actually more accurate for this tile. My bigger frustration is that sometimes a dealer will purposely rel-label a sample to make it appear like it’s the dealers product so they have a better chance of getting the job. Sometimes distinguishing between the dealer and actual manufacturer isn’t easy. In their defense, sometimes the manufacturer wants it that way.
Thanks. |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 633
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 08:24 pm: | |
Our large A/E firm has many offices about evenly divided between the US and Canada, with other offices in Great Britain, the near east, and elsewhere around the world. Some of the reasons we end up with foreign products specified:
1. The Project is in a foreign country.
2. With our Canadian offices and staff, there is a closer cultural, trade and professional A/E relationship with Great Britain. Knowledge of unique British products has trickled down throughout the firm. Some of which I can confirm are unique without equivalent US products (or a US firm may copy it just in time for substantial completion for your project).
3. Mexico is similar. When a project is in the southwest you may want a southwestern finish palette, and Mexico is your Sweets Catalog.
4. We recently completed an airport project on the California/Mexico - Baja Norte border with equal financial participation by US and Mexican developers. That project tried to split material sourcing 50/50.
5. An example of US companies finally catching up: For that airport project, we had designers in Vancouver and Mexico City, with Construction Documents from California. Both the Canadian and Mexican designers were aware of gyp. board panels that came from the factory with perforation patterns - similar to perforated metal patterns. We wanted that for acoustical control in the large arrival/departure halls. When we started construction documents for that project there were no US sources, but Certainteed and then Pyrock started offering it in time to incorporate it into the project.
6. If you put a structural steel package out to bid in Southern California, some bidders will be located in Mexico. The only reason we haven't used one yet is that we our Projects are usually going for LEED certification and we haven't found a Mexican fabricator that can properly track the recycled content - YET. One bidder provides limousine pickup, return, and customs expediting for California inspectors traveling from San Diego to inspect production at Tijuana fabrication plants.
7. A final office culture note: Our IT network is shared between Canada and the US. If I do a google search for a product, I will automatically get US responses equally weighted with Canadian responses. Those Canadian responses do include a lot of wonderful products manufactured in Britain and elsewhere that we don't see in the US because of Canadian trade policies different from the US. |
Brian Payne, AIA
Senior Member
Username: brian_payne
Post Number: 129
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 08:29 pm: | |
That’s totally not where I wanted this thread to go, ...and I am so glad that it did! Thanks for the perspective. It’s easy to get caught up in the way your own firm operates and forget how different the spec process can be for others. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 365
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 09:28 pm: | |
1. How should a manufacturer disclose that it's product is made in USA?
2. One of my clients makes all of its products in the US from materials extracted in US. Yet their products are essentially a commodity protect made to meet a recognized standard. Most of their competitors meet the standard, but manufacture overseas.
A -- Would you state, in the product section, "Must be made in USA"?
B -- The item amounts to a small fraction of a small percent of material and cost on the job. Do your firms actually stand behind a "made in usa" requirement during contract administration?
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 227
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2018 - 10:05 am: | |
In response to Brain Payne's original query, we sometimes don't have any choice but to depart from our staid conventions and just specify what the client wants/needs and where to get it. I do not like to list clearing houses, distribution sources, or specific product representatives in place of the OEMs. On the other hand, one can burn a lot of time trying to mine beneath those rocky sites to get to the true makers of things. I once had a client send me a fuzzy picture of a metal cabinet from an Alibaba site, with the expectation that I could write a descriptive specification for it so that "fair" bidding would be preserved. In the end, the owner took it out of the construction budget and purchased it outright. But not before I had wasted a fair amount of time trying to keep the client happy. |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 228
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2018 - 10:28 am: | |
Michael Chusid,
You raise some good points.
In my experience, source limitations and protectionist clauses come from the owner, not from the A/E. The exception is sustainable design that limits sources geographically, but these still need the owner's approval before they are incorporated into the design.
We normally see "made in the USA" themes in the General or Supplementary Conditions for public projects. When these requirements apply to a project, my job is to make sure all members of the design team are aware of them and don't create contradictory requirements in their work. If everyone is aware of their extent, then we don't need to re-iterate those requirements in individual sections, except that we might require a manufacturer's certification of compliance.
If the firm I am working for is providing full CA services, then assuring submittals reflect compliance is also part of my responsibility. If the Contractor is not motivated to comply, all I can do is document the non-conforming aspects. If the owner wants to negotiate acceptance of non-conforming aspects, there is not much I can do about it beyond registering my objections. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 12:55 pm: | |
I think listing the distributor or contact for unusual products is appropriate. It may even lead to better bids.
As to foreign products, remember that many parts of the US are much closer to other nations than other parts of the country. In the Northeast, parts of Europe and the Caribbean may be closer than the West Coast (though I can't remember that ever being a factor in product selection). New England has had a long history of structural steel, drywall and casework coming from Canada. Everything past Philly (congrats!) is further away from Boston than Montreal. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 02:47 pm: | |
It is not unusual for Contractors to use supply chains other than local distributors. The local guys had this, but the "buyer" (in this case the contractor) gets a better deal or better service by circumventing the local guys. I know that roofers with larger volume are able to buy direct from the manufacturer while others have to go through a local distributor. One of the major west coast glass fabricators has an "in" with one of the major local contractors. I don't understand it, but it happens.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
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