Never heard of ASTM

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1314 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 05:56 pm:    Please note that all of my postings are my own and do not reflect opinions or policies by my current or previous employers, friends, family, neighbors, pets, or anyone else for that matter. All mine. The post below is not meant to be mean. I'm simply flabbergasted. A manufacturer who has been around almost 100 years and who seems to make very good products (I won't say what since I don't want to publicize who they are), whose product I was instructed to use by a client because they've been happy with their products and prices in the past, responded to my spec with an RFI of sorts. Well nothing quite so official. More like an email. "We only comply with OSHA...We cannot confirm that we comply with the other standards that are listed." They don't comply with ASTM or any other industry standard. They "are not familiar with them..." They have no idea what we're talking about. I've explained the concept of compliance and convinced them that they probably do comply but just don't know it. They're looking into it with their suppliers. I don't understand how this can happen. These are intelligent people who are very personable and well spoken. They will go out of their way to satisfy their clients and seem to deserve our business except THEY NEVER HEARD OF ASTM or any of the other reference standards we listed! Good service. Presumably good products (then again, who knows?). Really good prices. I am at a total loss. Is this normal? Has everyone else encountered this sort of thing? Am I the only one who finds this occurrence odd? Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 832 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 09:02 pm:    Did the rep you talked to speak in the Imperial "We" or do you suspect it is merely a case of "they" (as in, that one person), being unfamiliar with....anything related to their trade? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 572 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 10:22 pm:    It sounds like you got a "customer service" person whose primary job is to take orders and who has not been trained to answer technical questions. I an a consultant to a manufacturer that has people on staff who are very conversant with their product's technology. Yet they also have a customer service department that works primarily with DIY customers. Occasionally, calls get routed to the wrong extension. Yet the DIY desk is trained to transfer technical calls. If the company has stood the test of time, seems to make a good product, and your client is happy with the product, do you need to use reference standards? Part of our job as specifiers is to train suppliers by telling them what we need from them. Consider following-up with them to see if they are following up on your request. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1315 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 08:32 am:    Nope. I went up the ladder. No one was "home." At least they're receptive and are looking into it. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 784 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 10:37 am:    I assume their printed literature does not mention standards compliance? Maybe their "really good prices" are related to their not having costs for testing to ASTM and other standards. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1316 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 10:47 am:    They buy their steel so all they have to do is get confirmation that the stuff they get on the truck complies. My guess is that it should be on the delivery ticket. I'm trying to go over the boss's head and talk with their shipping and receiving folks. I bet they know. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1317 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 10:49 am:    So maybe this is an anomaly and not prevalent practice in the industry? Nobody else ever run into this sort of thing? This isn't the new "normal?" James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 311 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:12 pm:    Ken, over the past several years I've been approached both by product representatives and enthusiastic junior designers who "have a great product that has been used in <name foreign market, usually Europe> for years, decades, millennia - and we need to have it on our project because it looks so keen." My "standard" response is "Show me the standard by which it has been tested." This is especially relevant for UL, NEC, NFPA etc. I know some European nations, and others, have standards for testing that may equal, or even exceed, those in the United States but if the building is in the U. S. the products going into that building need to comply with U. S. standards. I also believe you must have spoken to a sales representative for whom the subject of standards does not enter his or her normal daily routine. I hope you can get a satisfactory answer because you seems to have had positive experience with the product previously. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1319 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:27 pm:    Thanks James. Can't find anyone in the entire company that knows what I'm talking about. I'm hoping they'll let me go over their heads so I can talk to the folks that actually fabricate the units or at least the shipping clerk that receives the steel that gets sent over to fabrication. Company is in the Midwest, about as American as you can get. Truly friendly and nice people who are trying to help. I've explained my concerns about them providing engineered shop drawings if they don't know what ASTM standards are. That started a whole new discussion. Apparently no one has ever asked them for engineered shop drawings, just shop drawings. They have those in a file and can send them out right away, just tell them what model number and size you need. I feel like Kirk and Spock after landing on an asteroid that's really a spaceship that's been traveling for millennia and the people they're dealing with don't know that they're not on a planet. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 689 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:32 pm:    The only time I have had something similar happen is when a client has a "campus standard" preference for a brand of paint that is marketed entirely to the big box store, DIY, homeowner market. But even then if you poke and prod and sneak upstairs, you eventually unlock the hidden product data sheets with industry standard references. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1320 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:42 pm:    We're getting closer. Their supplier just sent a letter saying they comply with ASTM. Now if I can just get them to confess to which ASTM standards, I'll be happy. I might even change my spec to comply with their materials once I know what it is. John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1830 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:45 pm:    Maybe their normal sales channels have not included "specified" projects. If they've used a direct-to-owner model for years, and rarely been specified by an architect, that could explain this. Still, you'd think they'd have enough curiosity about their industry and competition to know what's happening, even if they chose not to bother with testing or compliance. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 573 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 05:47 pm:    "...if the building is in the U. S. the products going into that building need to comply with U. S. standards." I appreciate your concern that the supplier could not identify standard pertinent to its products, but wonder if the insistence on the use of "US" standards is off target. 1. Unless there is a code requirement to comply with a US Standard, the determination of which standards to use is the prerogative of the design professional or Owner. I encounter this frequently in my consulting work to the lightning protection industry. Most people in the US use an NFPA standard, but there are some who make use of a French standard based on what I believe to be specious claims. Still, since Lightning Protection is not mentioned in many codes, it is the specifier's option. 2. I use "foreign" standards when they make sense. Consider, for example, RAL colors and RoHS for hazardous substances in electronic devices. 3. ASTM is not a "US" standard. It rebranded to ASTM INTERNATIONAL and is open to input from and use by anyone anywhere. Many standards writing organizations are striving to achieve international harmonization. An example of this, again in my work in Lightning Protection, is that the Canadian standard has just been reissued to match NFPA standards in all but a few matters of regional preference and Canadian pride. NFPA is actively seeking internationalization, despite the word "National" in its formal title. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 312 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 08:18 am:    You are correct Michael. I was not advocating using only U.S. manufactured products. Some clients do require this but are finding increasingly difficult to follow that dictum 100%. Also correct is the international acceptance, and compliance with ASTM standards. When a manufacturer does have ASTM testing, or other recognized (familiar) standard, it makes it easier to select and specified that product. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1321 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 01:31 pm:    Joyous Monday morning. Received confirmation from their purchasing department that steel complies with ASTM. Now to see if we can get shop drawings. John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1831 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 03:31 pm:    It would be surprising if a raw steel component did not comply with ASTM since I would not expect any mills in the US, or that export to the US, to produce steel that didn't meet ASTM. I suppose they could use recycled steel or from iffy sources, it just seems unlikely. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1322 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 04:20 pm:    I agree John. That's why I was caught completely off-guard when they sent us a de facto RFI stating that they couldn't comply with our specified requirements. When the Contractor tried to place their order the manufacturer sent a note asking what ASTM was and why they had to comply with it. Raised a flag in my mind so I figured I should find out what's going on. Once I went from sales to management, one of the managers finally asked their procurement people who were quite adamant about complying. Once again I can pretend that all is right in the world. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 945 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 06:24 pm:    To say that the steel conforms to ASTM is almost worthless. What standard and what grade? For some products the grade of the steel might be irrelevant. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 08:22 pm:    As a person who does hobby metalwork and has occasionally played with junkyard mystery metal, I'm pretty confident that any steel mill that misrepresented the content of their metal would not stay in business more than a week after their first shipment. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 690 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 - 02:41 pm:    Working on projects in Southern California I quickly became accustomed to steel fabricated in Mexico. Conformance with specified ASTM standards was never an issue. The fabricators would also provide van transport and cross border assistance to US based inspectors to streamline their work. What they couldn't do as of the last project was provide LEED compliant documents for recycled content. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1323 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 - 04:54 pm:    This is for a very specific type of common miscellaneous metal fabrication using A36 angles, plates, and bars. We usually rely on the shop drawings to indicate compliance with specified loads based on ANSI standards for the fabrication since that already states the particulars. This fabricator claimed compliance with the ANSI standard but then asked what ASTM was. Not sure how that works until we found out that their back-of-house people knew what they're doing and just weren't sharing it with management or sales. I thought that communicating with Architects could be challenging sometimes. This was a whole new experience. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1140 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 08:55 am:    My guess is that such a shop would be unable to buy items that were not manufactured to ASTM A36 standards. What would be interesting is a deeper dive into the QC documentation from the steel mill indicating whether or not anything ever slipped through that did not meet the ASTM A36 specification. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1324 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 09:43 am:    I agree. That's why I was flabbergasted (see original post). The procurement people sounded pretty upset that the question was ever raised by their own sales force and that management was as clueless. Introducing left hand to right hand. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 69 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 07:21 pm:    Ken, Very good thread here. I really like your line "communicating with Architects could be challenging sometimes. This was a whole new experience." There's an expression abbreviated as HIA that applies fo the sales force. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus