| Author |
Message |
Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: presbspec
Post Number: 328
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 05:35 pm: |    |
Have an architect questioning whether we need to include the bituminous coating in grouted frames. appears he is getting push back from some contractors. I understand the reason for this, and have stated it many times.
Do any of you have some more definitive sources that may carry more weight than the word of this "lowly spec writer"? |
Marc Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 591
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 06:13 pm: | |
the coating is not (per my knowledge) part of the fire testing of the door, doesn't do much good and i have removed it for the past 10 years or so along with "grouting the frames solid"...but that is just my opinion. have you asked the SDI? |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 196
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 08:29 pm: | |
Margaret,
Perhaps the question is why are you grouting hollow metal frames? What purpose do you think it serves?
It is not required for any fire-rated assemble.
It is not required for any structural reasons.
The Steel Door Institute does not recommend grouting any hollow metal frames including galvanized steel frames.
The bituminous coating will not eliminate rusting of galvanized steel framed.
My experience is that is s specified based on tradition and nothing more.
If your concern is thermal, consider a different frame material or use a thermally broken hollow metal frame with thermal anchors and insulating the throat with something that will not trap water, like mineral wool insulation. |
Brian Payne
Senior Member
Username: brian_payne
Post Number: 212
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 08:42 pm: | |
What Ronald said! x10 Ditto. Amen! |
Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: presbspec
Post Number: 329
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 11:04 pm: | |
OK Guys! I stand corrected |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 685
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 03:12 pm: | |
Unfortunately, I have experienced grout filled frames still being a design requirement in certain applications for clients like Customs and Border Protection. |
Guest (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2020 - 11:05 am: | |
Just to top off the already good advice, here is what the SDI says: https://www.steeldoor.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/risks-of-grouting-frames.pdf |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2020 - 12:09 pm: | |
Thanks Guest.
So reading into this my guess is that bituminous coatings were introduced to offset antifreeze agents in the grout. Interesting way to solve a problem that could have been fixed by following the standards. Of course this practice probably goes back to the 1950's or earlier so who knows what standards said back then. |
Ed Storer
Senior Member
Username: ed_storer
Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 07:01 pm: | |
In my experience, the only valid reason for grouting of frames is for high security doors in masonry or concrete openings.
Use of gypsum products for grouting solves no problems and can cause problems if the grout is over-watered - i.e. rust through.
I had a prison project once where cementitious grout was specified for the frames. The subcontractor chose to save money by using (illegal) beach sand in the grout. The salt component of the sand caused all sorts of corrosion.
Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus |
4specs.com Home Page