Magnesium Oxide Based Exterior Wall P...

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message GabeLander (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 04:43 pm:    I just came across some magnesium oxide based exterior wall sheathing board that seems cheaper than OSB, Densglass etc. I don't understand why no one is using this and similar products especially in commercial. Does anyone know what GCs and architects are concerned about with Magnesium Oxide Exterior Wall Sheathing? For context I do framing and installation for commercial buildings in the Northeast Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP, AIA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 191 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 05:24 pm:    Most of it is made in China, and does not have an evaluation report showing compliance with the applicable ICC Acceptance Criteria. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1990 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 08:25 pm:    Gabe, "you get what you pay for"...I will only specify a product manufactured in China if the Owner takes full responsibility for possible failure. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 479 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 10:53 pm:    Jerome - i share your concern over many of the building products from China. I was a consultant to a company selling a product made in china, and we had total frustration dealing with quality control, testing labs, translation, etc. But it would be unfortunate to dismiss the company just because of their manufacturing location. While made in China, the product technology comes from Europe, financing from Singapore, senior management from israel, and operations, customer support, and distribution from north america. The leadership of the company stuck with it, and have solved the problems with the made in china goods. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1992 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 11:03 pm:    i asked a trusted WP Consultant tonight about Mag Oxide WP, he had no clue, and this Consultant has worked on many projects in the southeast. I see no reason to look into this product just to save a few bucks. Meanwhile I am specifying a composite wood product from China on a condo, god help me, its called WoodN. I have a disclaimer in my agreement. Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 176 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 11:06 pm:    FYI -A rep came in 6 months ago with a product called Armorwall that uses it. First I heard of it. Last month BSD Speclink added MagOxide Gypsum Board to their gypsum master spec. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1993 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 11:27 pm:    Its difficult to keep up with all the manufacturer changes, speaking to a Sika rep today I found out one of my fav manufacturers (Emseal) is now owned by Sika. I have to ask Colin how he missed this change. Actually Emseal retained its name, but I specify Emseal on many jobs, hard to explain my ignorance to a client. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 463 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 11:53 pm:    When a company is purchased and retains the name and website, I leave it as is. When the website url changes or the company name changes I'll add it to the changes page. Just too complex to do it otherwise. You may also I note I generally do not use an Inc, LLC, etc unless it is part of the company name, trying to stay with a generic name. Again with 8,000 companies, there are too many changes to do otherwise. I also consider the company and how likely they are to be in specs as part of my decision. Colin Gilboy Publisher, 4specs.com 702-505-9119 - Las Vegas J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1075 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2019 - 10:09 am:    We looked at some mag oxide products over a year ago for a project. The types of products we looked at were board and plaster. Magnesium oxide has been around in the US for a long time. Wikipedia notes "New York City's Brooklyn Bridge base is made from locally mined cement, a mixture of calcium oxide and magnesia cement commonly called Rosendale Natural Cement, the only natural non-fired cement made in the US." They also say that major deposits are found in overseas locations (including China). If I remember correctly, we found a couple of minor manufacturers in the US. We did express concerns about availability and delivery. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Gabelander (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2019 - 03:20 pm:    Yeah I guess the magnesium oxide doesn't make as much sense in residential if its only going to save you a couple of bucks. I was thinking more on a large commercial building where huge scale would come into play and then you're saving tens of thousands of dollars. Has anyone actually used this stuff? How easy is it to work with or install? George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 891 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2019 - 06:14 pm:    Remember how and why gypsum board (“drywall”, “sheetrock”, “plaster board”, etc.) came to be the ubiquitous wall surface it is today, and how it works as a passive fire-resisting element. Gypsum board replaced cementitious plaster for several reasons: It was lighter than plaster, faster to apply and finish, and required much less water. Moreover, it provided a high level of fire-resistance within a relatively thin and lightweight product, and the reason is that during the process of its manufacturing, crystallized water becomes chemically bonded within the gypsum. As fire begins to affect gypsum board in a wall assembly, the temperature of the product is raised in a linear fashion until the water within the product begins to sublime – that is it turns from a solid component directly into a vapor. This change in state within the material consumes a tremendous amount of heat energy from the fire side without raising the temperature further on the safe side, and thus allows a couple of thin layers of gypsum board to provide fire resistance quantifiable by an ASTM E-119 test as code requires. So, that leads me to a question: Do magnesium oxide based board assemblies pass ASTM E-119? If they do, I bet they rely on rock wool insulation within the assembly. What we expect of gypsum board is that even non-rated varieties will provide some fire resistance by themselves because of the internal chemistry that I described above. Do not assume mag boards to = gyp boards if you are at all concerned about fire resistance. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1777 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2019 - 03:58 pm:    George, forgive me if I get picky about sublimation and gypsum, but as you know specifiers are overly focused on the nitty gritty. Your description of how drywall protects from fire is spot on, except for the terminology. Sublimation is the process of phase change from solid to gas without the intermediate liquid phase. The most common one we see is dry ice sublimating into carbon dioxide with its characteristic fog. Sublimation is not a chemical process. Gypsum board's reaction under heat is a chemical reaction; the change from gypsum--a hydrous mineral--to anhydrous calcium sulfate. In the gypsum form, the calcium sulfate is chemically combined with the water molecules. The reaction in a fire is endothermic, absorbing heat in the process. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2019 - 04:09 pm:    I agree with John with the following addition: When gypsum absorbs heat energy and is converted to anhydrous calcium sulfate, it gives off water. This water is most likely in the form of water vapor, rather than liquid water, because of the presence of ambient heat. One could say that this water goes from solid to gas, but it is not a simple phase change like sublimation. As John points out, it is the result of an endothermic chemical reaction. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 90 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2019 - 04:14 pm:    I do however agree with George in his concern that magnesium oxide board is a different substance than gypsum board, and not interchangeable with it in terms of fire-rated assemblies nor in terms of other properties such as bending strength. George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 892 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2019 - 05:10 pm:    John and Greta- Thanks for the correction. It's always important to get the terminology (and the science) correct. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1077 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2019 - 11:43 am:    That being said, there are "mag boards" that have been successfully tested in fire-resistive assemblies, and it is manufactured in the US. The critical issue at this point is simply availability and cost. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP GabeLander (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2019 - 11:54 am:    Hi Peter, could you tell me a little bit more about these "mag boards". Where have you seen these used? and how do they compare on a price basis compared to gypsum sheathing? J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1079 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 12:41 pm:    We specified it on a project that was not constructed. The product was specified at the request of the Owner. This link takes you to one manufacturer, but I do believe that there are several in the US. https://www.northamericanmgo.com/ The availability of the US-manufactured product is linked to the availability of the raw materials. Gypsum is much more available in the US than Magnesium oxide. The magnesium oxide is much more available in China than is gypsum. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 91 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 01:24 pm:    I just found in my files a paper on "Problems of magnesium oxide wallboard usage in construction" written in 2017 by researchers at two universities in Russia. The authors explain that the chemical composition of these boards includes magnesium chloride as well as magnesium oxide, magnesite (magnesium carbonate), perlite and glass fiber. The presence of the magnesium chloride causes the board to absorb moisture in a way that can cause corrosion in metal studs or decay in wood studs. While there may be different formulations of magnesium oxide board, this raises a concern. I have never been asked to specify this type of wallboard or sheathing, and would hesitate to do so until I had more assurance that this moisture issue had been solved. Perhaps an ASTM standard is needed. Or is there one already? I could not find one. Note that the formulation of magnesium oxide wallboard described in the paper is very different from Rosendale Cement. The latter comes from a raw material which is basically an argillaceous limestone that comprises about 50% calcium carbonate, with magnesium carbonate and aluminum silicates as the other primary components. When processed, Rosendale Limestone produces an excellent natural cement, with properties similar to Portland cement which is made from limestone (calcium carbonate) to which clay minerals need to be added during processing.