DensElement vs. Exoair

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Author Message LoganAtkins (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, April 05, 2019 - 04:08 pm:    Can anyone compare DensElement vs.USG's Exoair. I am trying to decide which one to use and do not see any big differentiators. Are these essentially the same product? Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 892 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, April 08, 2019 - 09:54 am:    Same church. Different pew. Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 173 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, April 08, 2019 - 11:27 am:    Exoair is just pre-applied 230 to USG exterior sheathing. It’s saving a step, but ultimately still two separate proven products. Densglass Element is added moisture resistant “something” inside the sheathing product. Steven Cheng (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - 10:00 am:    DensElement Barrier System is fully tested and listed as a system ICC-ESR 3786. USG ExoAir 430 has a PEI report for the product but as Brian stated, it's two separate products that have been combined in a factory somewhere. No system listing available. LoganAtkins (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 04:20 pm:    Hi Wayne do you know if the Denselement performs the same as if I bought Desnglass gold and put an AVB on top of it? Does it perform as advertised pretty much? Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 894 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 05:11 pm:    Logan, The end result is the same. The advertised advantage of Denselement is it eliminates the additional step of the air/water control layer required in the field when using DensGlass gold sheathing. In otherwords, labor and material saving. Joints, terminations, penetrations, expansion control treatment remains the same for both products. LoganAtkins (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2019 - 04:24 pm:    So Wayne if you were me, would you be pretty much be making a decision based on price for these two products (ExoAir and Denselement)? (Thanks again for our help, this makes a lot of sense David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1768 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2019 - 09:54 pm:    I predict in a few years that integral WRB/gypsum board sheathing will be the "new norm". I have worked on projects where I did not specify the board but the contractor submitted a substitution request even though those products are much more expensive. The contractor saw the savings in labor and calculated that it was worth the extra expense. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2002 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2019 - 05:48 pm:    Not a So FL Contractor, they only care about the present. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1078 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2019 - 11:50 am:    I have not be specifying that these products be used without contractor involvement. We have had these products come up in substitution requests (we recommend that they be accepted), and during the design phase, an Owner may suggest this upon a contractor's recommendation. We are involved on a project where a major drywall sub was assigned the responsibility of installing the exterior sheathing, and the Architect suggested that they look into these types of products (lunch-n-learn presentations do work). The sub's estimator did not support the use of integral WRB/gypsum sheathing. As near as I could tell from the email thread, they thought that there would be a damage to the water-resistive membrane after installation which would compromise the systems integrity. They did not want to be held responsible for water penetration through the system. By having a separate air and water barrier, the responsibility would fall on that installer. I was surprised at this approach, but... J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP LoganAtkins (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 11:35 am:    Hey David, just wondering how much are contractors saying they are saving? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1776 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 01:59 pm:    Georgia Pacific DensElement exterior sheathing boards are about $4 to $5 installed per square foot. DensGlass Gold boards installed are half that price. DensGlass Gold boards with Prosoco Cat 5 weather barrier coating applied over the top are the same price price installed as DensElement boards. The benefit is a 30 percent reduction in labor between DensElement versus DensGlass Gold with Cat 5. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1779 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, April 26, 2019 - 12:35 pm:    Here is a YouTube video comparison of DensElement installation versus DensGlass Gold / weather barrier installation. The side by side comparison starts at about one minute, if you want to skip ahead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnImO_2_7no David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 766 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, April 29, 2019 - 12:11 pm:    I received this email (from USG obviously): We would like to thank you for specifying Exoair 430 as an option on your project. You also include Dens Element by Georgia Pacific as an option. Unfortunately the Dens Element does not have a membrane. What they call a membrane is nothing more than densified gypsum dyed blue. Dens Element has done a great job fooling the architectural community with their far from the truth marketing. This product is no more than their standard sheathing Dens Glass Gold, ( we have testing to prove that claim). In fact there are several projects in Texas that has had this product installed and they have to come back and put a traditional fluid applied on it to stop it from leaking. If you typically use a sheathing with a fluid applied air and water barrier, then Dens Element is not the product you need. If you are upgrading your spec from a sheathing and building wrap then Dens Element is the correct product. Anyone have any thoughts? Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP Senior Member Username: edueppen Post Number: 55 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Monday, April 29, 2019 - 01:05 pm:    Robin, I also have reservations about using DensElement. While the USG/Tremco product has a distinct air barrier membrane, the DensElement does not have a membrane - unless the entire sheathing panel is to be considered a membrane. Get a sample and check it for yourself. Regarding the email from USG, I find it very unprofessional. If USG has testing that DensElement is inferior, they need to share it. I recommend you ask them for the test results they claim to have and verify that they have been performed by a qualified 3rd party. And can they share reports and testing for the projects in Texas? LoganAtkins (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - 11:59 am:    I just called to get prices on the Denselement to see what this thing is being priced at, and its close to $1.45/ sq.ft. This seemed somewhat high to me, but the ExoAir 430 was closer to $3 a square foot. Both of these prices are just for the board not including labor or anything else. Does this sound right?? How can these prices be competitive? Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1450 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 04:30 pm:    Our office has been discussing these systems because a couple of our contractors want to use them -- but I might add here that our waterproofing consultants feel that they just barely qualify as air barriers and don't meet the testing requirements we would typically have. One comment was "well, it might be okay under an EIFS system". (and we don't specify EIFS in our office). So, it might be worth having the wall assembly analyzed for air infiltration before you specify the system -- it may not get you want you want. StevenCheng (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, May 17, 2019 - 08:47 am:    A salesperson from the manufacturer presented us with this document https://denselement.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DensElement_Testing_Matrix_Digital.pdf The acceptance criteria listed is the same as what we see when we specify liquid WRBs Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 480 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 12:59 pm:    I would suggest to designers to avoid both products and any similar ones unless either A: there is Owner-approved VE in writing, or B: The manufacturers come forward with some proof (e.g. installer certification) that the installers will do the proper preparation for the joint tape so it actually sticks, and with ExoAir 430 need confidence that their fastener heads will not cause air barrier cracking which has been observed on some projects. I have relayed these concerns to the manufacturers and still have not heard a resolution to these concerns. If using, it would be good to make it an Alternate so you can get installed price comparison. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1458 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 08:34 pm:    I spoke with one of our envelope consultants and they like the Exo-Air system because it is essentially an impregnated sheathing board. The DensElement system is a relatively thin coating over a sheathing board that can be easily damaged. In cold or inclement climates, this consultant has typically recommended that the sheathing be pre-coated in the shop in order to assure good adhesion to the board, and they see the ExoAir system as being comparable to that. Steven Cheng (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 11:26 am:    Anne Whitacre, I think you have those products reversed. The DensElement is more like an impregnated sheathing board. The Exoair has a cured coating on the top and we have observed that it pulls away easily from the sheathing whenever boards are cut. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2019 - 02:58 pm:    When you consider that the original Canadian standard for air in/ex-filtration was a piece of 1/2 inch thick gypsum board taped to a vacuum chamber, the idea of using 5/8-inch glass fiber faced siliconized gypsum sheathing made sense. I wrote a spec for sheathing/WRB on a project that used only DensGlas Gold and Henry Blue-Skin tape. During construction, it looked like Cub Scout headquarters, but it has worked. The tedious application of the Blueskin primer and generous application of tape at flashings and penetrations has been successful. Further research revealed that a coat of acrylic masonry coating on the DensGlas worked very well as a primer for the SAM and provided an extra layer of confidence for the Owner. The drywall sub on the project shop-coated the sheathing and saved 2 weeks on the construction schedule - Big savings. DensElement is an outgrowth of those projects and I find it effective and cost saving, FYI: I was part of a focus group in 1987 st G-P Atlanta HQ before DensGlas was introduced. G-P followed the group's recommendation and has a very successful product. I'm glad to see that USG and other manufacturers are catching on. Colin Gilboy Board Administrator Username: admin Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2020 - 05:09 pm:    In February 2020 3rd party comparison testing was published highlighting water resistance performance differences between DensElement and Securock ExoAir 430. USG sponsored a small portion of the research cost published in a White Paper. The document can be found at: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/m-steven-doggett_water-resistance-of-integrated-wrb-panels-activity-6636600364764409857-Oxhd Or I can forward a copy if you email me. Glad to answer any questions about it. Scott Sellers USG - ssellers@usg.com [I was asked to post this - Colin] Colin Gilboy Publisher, 4specs.com 702-505-9119 - Las Vegas Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 804 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, April 06, 2020 - 07:27 pm:    Colin, thank you for posting that! Steven Cheng (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 03:49 pm:    Have seen Steven Doggett present at my BEC. Very arrogant guy who makes up his own test methods and points out problems but never offers solutions. USG funded the white paper, so of course it shows GP’s product in a negative light John Chamberlin (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 03:44 pm:    DensElement Barrier System has been installed in over 500 projects across the United States and Canada since 2015. Extensive testing has been run to validate the performance of DensElement Barrier System, all by third party accredited labs as summarized here: https://www.buildgp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/DensElement_Testing_Matrix_Digital.pdf I would recommend to anyone who is comparing these two products to familiarize themselves with the white papers published by Georgia-Pacific including this most recent one: https://www.buildgp.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/DensElement-WhitePaper-RainScreen.pdf You will see that DensElement Barrier System exceeds performance requirements set forth in building codes even when penetrated by mechanical attachment of rainscreen subframe systems. I am also available to offer answer questions or speak to testing of DensElement Barrier System directly: john.chamberlin@gapac.com anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 11:53 pm:    Since when are water-resistant barriers required to withstand hydrostatic pressure - prolonged or otherwise? Since when? This "test" would be similar to testing awning fabric to support a 10 foot tall, 12 inch diameter concrete column point load. It is neither designed nor required to do such a thing. It is designed to support SOME load (snow, wind, etc.) but not a concrete column! Absolutely ridiculous. Wwater-resistant barriers are designed to RESIST incidental moisture that gets beyond the primary line of defense (i.e. the cladding) as a SECONDARY line of defense within an above-grade, exterior wall assembly. Think about that for a moment. This is but another Spinal Tap selling tactic: "But, this goes to 11!" 10 is just fine.