Silicone Waterproofing

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1957 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 02:58 pm:    Client has requested I specify 100% silicone waterproofing over CBS (stucco over concrete masonry) to receive a corrugated metal panel wall system. Anyone able to suggest such a waterproofing product, this is for a one story new retail building in South Florida. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 757 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 03:35 pm:    Try GE Momentive systems. They are 100% silicone and designed for long term UV exposure for use in rain screen systems. I’ve used it on several large scale healthcare projects. For Florida, need to be careful about permeability so it might be a bit too restrictive, but they tweak their product line all the time. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1750 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 05:09 pm:    Jerome, Do you mean silicone water repellent? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 05:59 pm:    Or, continuing David's line of questioning, do you mean silicone weather barrier/air and water barrier (AWB)? Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1958 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 10:20 pm:    David, et al, client has not been clear, this is a new request on the 2nd phase of an existing project, seems the Architect is spicing up the exterior wall treatments. I received drawings late today. I am looking at GE and Dow waterproofing systems, but I believe once the Owner sees what these products cost he will change his mind. Still I must procede. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1959 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 - 10:20 pm:    Not a water repellent. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1751 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2019 - 12:34 am:    I am still hung up on the term "waterproofing". I only see waterproofing below grade where there is a head of water pressing on the foundation walls. Do you mean "elastomeric coating" or "weatherproofing"? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1960 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2019 - 01:28 am:    David my friend you have never specified a elevated deck waterproofing system? Also referred to as a Traffic Coating system? But I specify both hot and cold above grade waterproofing systems much more than below grade. Where in Masterformat have you ever seen "Weatherproofing"? Of course I would be confused writing specs in your region, this past Monday the temp dropped to 44 snd we were all freezing. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1752 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2019 - 01:22 pm:    I stand corrected. I do specify waterproofing on plaza decks under roof pavers and waterproof membranes under tile in showers / kitchens. I never specify waterproofing for vertical walls. I my region the walls need to transmit vapor and dry out. This is one of the reasons why I do not specify silicone water repellents on brick / block. They trap moisture. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1206 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2019 - 01:52 pm:    Hi Jerry. I find it interesting that the owner has the sense to put on a long-lasting coating instead of the traditional acrylic that has a limited lifetime, especially in SoFlo. I'm more familiar with silicone air barriers (which I think are great BTW) and silicone roof coatings (usually over SPF). Exposed wall coatings not so much. I'd be curious as to what you find out. Dan Helphrey Senior Member Username: dbhelphrey Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2018 Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2019 - 02:31 pm:    I have used the black GE Momentive behind open-joint rain screen systems and been quite happy with it. Not cheap, though. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2013 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 - 08:37 pm:    Nathan, David, Ken, Dan, still not resolved, my client wants me to prepare a silicone WP section pro bono, it was not in my scope of work, he won't retain a WP Consultant to advise on the proper product. I have never specified a silicone WP on exterior Concrete and Concrete block. Any suggestions. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 767 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 12:32 am:    Do you want me to see if i can get my GE rep to find the FL GE rep for you? Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2014 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 12:46 am:    Robin, the GE Rep or the DOW Rep are going to promote their products, I need an impartial third party, a Coatings or WP Consultant to advise whether the silicone WP will be problematic. Usually I don't have a problem obtaining such information/opinion. The Developer has their own Consultant but they have not advised an opinion. Thanks anyway, ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1222 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 09:02 am:    I'd call my Dow and GE reps at this point and see if this even exists. If there are multiple sources, they would know who their competition is. I'm unclear on the system. Is the stucco being covered with corrugated metal panels? If so that would imply that this is more of an air amd water barrier vs. an exposed waterproofing system. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2015 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 09:09 am:    Yes the metal panels are covering the wall void of stucco; some walls have stucco, some do not. I just spent an hour on the Dow site trying to download a speci on Dowsil Allguard, but have had no luck. Yes to ar/water barrier. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1223 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 09:55 am:    try Errol Bull with GE Momentive. He can be reached at: Mobile: +1 (518) 791-1040 errol.bull@momentive.com Errol is one of the best technical resources I know of. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 767 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 12:32 pm:    Jerome, are you looking for something like this? https://prosoco.com/Content/Documents/Product/WS_Blok-Guard_and_Graffiti_Control_II_PDS_040212_C.pdf An (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 12:43 pm:    You might try Dowsil DefendAir 200 for a silicone-based air barrier / weather barrier instead of AllGuard. Word doc for the spec from DowSil for download here: https://consumer.dow.com/content/dam/dcc/documents/en-us/compliance/63/63-62/63-6203-01-architectural-specifications-section-07-27-29.docx It is also included in Avitru MasterSpec Section 072726 - Fluid-Applied Membrane Air Barriers as a "low-build, vapor-permeable air barrier." Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2016 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 01:06 pm:    Thanks all so far, Dowsil Defender 200 looks to be the best product, but it is pricey. Our local Sika rep is pushing Sikagard 525 which is $50 per 5 gal can less than Defender 200. These coatings will be covered by metal panels, so I am also looking at a much cheaper product, SW's Conflex. The Developer will decide which product I should specify. An (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2019 - 12:57 pm:    I'll throw in GE's Elemax 2600 AWB as a suggestion as well. Guide spec for download on the GE website. https://www.siliconeforbuilding.com/Product-Categories/100-Silicone-Air-Water-Resistive-Barrier/Elemax-2600-AWB.aspx