| Author |
Message |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:00 pm: |    |
I was wondering if there is any major concerns with using composite vs. non-composite insulated architectural precast concrete panels?
The primary concern that I have seen is concern with potential bowing. I understand this is still an evolving science. |
anon (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:23 pm: | |
Dale,
What is the difference between a composite insulated architectural precast concrete panel and a non-composite insulated architectural precast concrete panel?
I am not understanding your question. |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 139
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:51 pm: | |
A Composite Precast Architectural Insulated Concrete Panel uses both the inner and outer wythe of the sandwich panel (insulation in between) structurally as opposed to a non-composite panel which just relies on the inner wythe as the primary structural support for the panel. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 418
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:58 pm: | |
As an example of a composite, see https://thermomass.com/. EPS board is sandwiched between to layers of concrete. The layers are joined with connectors that transfer shear. When the sun heats the outer layer, it bows and goes into compression. The inner layer goes into tension and can crack if not designed properly.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 881
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 02:06 pm: | |
I have specified many mission critical projects in the continental US using insulated prestressed concrete panels, without issues in the panels themselves.
Things to pay attention to are the continuity of the air barrier at the parapets (where roof meets the wall).
Wayne |
anon (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 05:30 pm: | |
Thanks, Dale, I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant, it was not entirely clear to me in your original post.
I response to your question, yes, i have specified sandwich panel architectural precast panels for 3 recent projects - an extremely large hospital, a courthouse, and a sports arena all in the USA, various climates. No issues to report, all were successful installations, would not hesitate to do again and again.
Happy specifying! |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 06:23 pm: | |
Dale, have you reached out to a trusted precaster? Where is your project located? |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 07:57 pm: | |
Dale,
All insulated precast concrete wall panels I have specified have been noncomposite.
One difference between composite and noncomposite, is that the connectors used to to tie the interior and exterior wythe together must extend through the insulation in a noncomposite panel. The use of either stainless steel or nonmetallic connectors is essential in noncomposite panels.
It is my understanding that composite panels are thinner, but may be more expensive.
I would suggest you contact PCI certified plants in your area. |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 140
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 03:57 pm: | |
Thank you for your input. We have typically designed and worked with non-composite panels.
Including Thermomass whose panels are typically non-composite and others.
We are in schematic design and the suggestion to use composite came from one of the pre-casters that the CM was working with re: pricing. The proposal was based on lower cost for composite.
We are leaning to the non-composite as we originally proposed. One of the concerns that I have seen in technical materials produced by PCI is the potential bowing of composite panels due to effects of heating of the outer wythe from sun exposure.
The project is located in Michigan. We have had a number of successful projects with non-composite panels in this area.
Part of the reason that I reached out is that we have not had direct experience with the composite panels. |
anon (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 07:01 pm: | |
Thermomass offers both a structurally-composite concrete sandwich wall (SC) in both plant precast and site-cast tilt-up applications as well as a non-composite insulated concrete sandwich wall (NC). For the projects I mentioned, we used their SC system. No issues. I saw a 2003 PCI article that talked about bowing problems, but guessing manufatcurer's have solved this. Again, we had no issues with the SC systems specified and installed. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 419
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 11:35 pm: | |
Anon mentioned an article he read. There are a few concrete magazines that I recommend to all specifiers wanting to stay up to date on concrete:
Concrete International - From ACI
Concrete Contractor - contractor point of view
Concrete Producer - from precaster and ready mix point of view.
The editors of these magazines are very concrete savvy and don't let nonsense into their pages.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 882
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - 11:05 am: | |
Good morning Dale,
I recommend you read Building Science Insight-054: Risky Business: High Risk Walls by Joseph Lstiburek, Octiber 11, 2011.
Please go to https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi054-risky-business-high-risk-walls |
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