Decorative Window Film

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1882 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 02:49 pm:    Writing a spec this weekend for window film (088743) , is it insane to ask for a sample or mock-up on the actual glass to be used? Anyone who has prepared this spec in past have any words of wisdom? Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 449 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 03:58 pm:    I have window film on our house. I would do one or more windows as there will be a change in the reflection (more of a mirror) and you want to be sure it is not too dark. If this is a condo, I would do one entire room. The film can be removed if necessary. Colin Gilboy Publisher, 4specs.com 435.654.5775 - Utah J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1038 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 06:11 pm:    It depends. If this is a single interior location to receive a custom window film, you could request a sample, but a mockup might be overkill. If it is installed incorrectly, simply require that it be removed and new film installed. If there are a number of locations to receive film, then a sample and a mockup would be a good idea. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1883 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 06:49 pm:    Surprise Colin, its not a condo, actually a new retail building, Architect is using the film to emphasize glass configuration at prominent locations. Colin, FL Architects are still not using specifications for Condo work, except for a rare few, most are my clients. I've stopped fighting for the importance of specifications in Condo documentation, even though no one has proven that specifications increase litigation risk. The naysayers are too strong, too powerful. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1884 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 07:31 pm:    Peter, its not the installation that I am concerned with its the final appearance, unfortunately the Architect is in Vegas for a "conference" this weekend, otherwise i would ask. Specs are due Monday morning. This is the first job for this client that I have specified color window film, having written specs for 18 years for this client. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2154 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 09:00 pm:    I'd specify mock-ups of each different film/location for approval by Architect before final installation. If the Architect disagrees, it's easier to take that out than it would be to put it in. Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 255 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 09:51 am:    I always suggest a mockup when specifying glazing film. These products are similar to paint, in that the effect can't really be known without a good-sized area installed in place. Multiple mockups would be warranted for a large installation w/ different conditions or varying orientations. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 393 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2018 - 12:07 pm:    Let me play dumb and naive... Since your client selected the glass and selected the film, I assume the client has already investigated the compatibility and appearance of the two products together. So what is the point of a mock-up? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 240 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 09:21 am:    That is a good question, Michael. The client may not have looked at the glass with the film applied to it. For that matter the client most probably did not look at the glass and film together in the "environment" where it will be installed. That suggest a minor sort of mock-up I believe. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1663 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 12:30 pm:    I would definitely specify a sample and mockup, unless the client is very familiar with the film product and has used it on similar projects. Samples and mockups are a hassle, but not as big a hassle as redoing work do to lack of submittals. Be aware that adding a film to glass will may void the glazing warranty. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 246 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 01:15 pm:    This is an example of how much thought it requires to specify an apparently simple product. I hope Jerome's client appreciates his diligence. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1886 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 01:20 pm:    David, how could adding a film to the interior face of the glass affect the warranty, the laminated glass remains untouched? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1664 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 02:01 pm:    Jerome, An interior film reflects heat and UV back into the insulated glazing unit creating excessive heat in the cavity and possibly shortening the lifespan of the gaskets. Check with film and glazing manufacturers to ensure the film and glass is compatible. Vitro Architectural Glass has an article on field applied films: http://www.vitroglazings.com/VitroGlazings/media/sitedocuments/TDs/100_TD-139.pdf David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1887 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 03:36 pm:    Right you are David, I just spoke to the Florida Vitro Rep who confirmed. Thank god I did not recommend the color film. I asked the Vitro rep if colors could be added in the factory as part of the glass configuration. Waiting to hear options. Perhaps this is why I have never specified Color Fim on Glass, too bad I wrote the spec section which will now be discarded. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1665 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 03:53 pm:    The only time I have written an applied film specification was for retrofitting existing windows where the owner did not want to replace the glazing units. The glass was out of warranty anyway so what the heck! David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 04:47 pm:    The window exposure may make a difference on the film/glass combo. I would have less concern about using it on North facing windows or interior lights (at least in the Northern Hemisphere). Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 401 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 01:02 am:    Check mfr data for warranty limitation for glass breakage if decorative film is applied to exterior glass. I recall a ridiculously low $ limit, something like $500. May have been 3M. I therefore recommend for my clients to consider avoiding decorative glazing film if it is exterior. I would have much rather seen specific parameters which make it successful, instead of the mfr basically copping out on their product. It would help if the manufacturers all had trained installers or if the industry had a common program for trained installers. The glass film industry seems to lack standardization other than a few broad functional terms. This has led to wild claims of even bullet-resistance yet without ballistic testing. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1039 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 10:05 am:    I concur with Mr. Grimm's comments. I have run into clients who believe that they can get bullet-resistant glass or wind-debris-impact- resistant glass with film applications over existing, in place glass. This can happen with limited lower expectations (like smallest caliber handguns or smallest missile impact). Even so, there are very specific requirements that affect the appearance of the installation. I will generally only specify film for interior projects, but I have done the impact-resistant film for a few existing installation. New exterior installations with high performance requirements require specific glazing installations which will also affect the framing systems. Likewise, the glazing industry offers a variety of specialty products. The Owner should be aware that replacing such units may require greater than normal expense and long lead time. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1888 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 04:13 pm:    Looks like my client will be opting for use of a color interlayer within laminated glass in lieu of the window film. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 404 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 10:08 pm:    A better choice, as a result of the specifications process!