Acoustical Ceiling Panel or Tile Revi...

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Author Message James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 230 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 12:33 pm:    I've been trying for years to get those people creating drawings in the office to use the correct term when referring to acoustical ceiling products. In an archived thread on this forum Dave Metzger gives a distinction between acoustical panels and acoustical tiles based on size and whether the suspension grid is exposed or concealed. Peter Jordan adds to that citing ASTM E 1264 which defines, in Article 3 of the standard, the two thus. 3.2.1 acoustical panel - a form of prefabricated sound absorbing ceiling element used with exposed suspension systems. 3.2.2 - acoustical tile - a form of prefabricated sound absorbing ceiling element used with concealed or semi-exposed suspension systems. It would seem by the ASTM definitions that only those elements using a conventional t-grid are considered panels and all else are tiles. The standard makes no distinction about size. Dave, I know it has been almost 10 years since the thread was last edited but if you are reading this please cite your source for the size requirement. If that is an industry standard it would be very helpful in holding those who prepare our documents to something consistent. I believe ASTM's definitions leave too much room for argument. Brian Payne, AIA Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 133 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 01:11 pm:    This is the info from BSD's Master Notes for what it is worth. "12 x 12 inch (25 x 25 mm) acoustical units are referred to as tile; larger sizes are panels. Tiles of mineral fiber and panels of mineral fiber, metal-faced mineral fiber, glass fiber, melamine foam, and veneered medium density fiberboard (MDF) are included." James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 231 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 02:01 pm:    Thank you, Brian. Now if we only knew where BSD got their information. . . I'll do some research and let this forum know what I find. If anyone else has a more 'authoritative' source please let me know. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 723 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 02:13 pm:    James, Copying what I had said in that archived thread from May 2008: "Ceiling panels are typically 2' x 2' or 2' x 4' (tho larger sizes also are available), laid into an exposed suspension grid (tho there are panels which have the grid exposed on two parallel sides and concealed on the other two sides). Ceiling tiles are typically 12" x 12" (tho other sizes also are available), and have a concealed suspension grid." I probably used Masterspec evaluations as the source for these distinctions. As you note above, ASTM E 1264 does not differentiate based on size--perhaps because both panels and tiles are available in a variety of sizes. I see the primary distinction between ceiling "panels" and "tiles" as based on use of an exposed suspension grid vs concealed suspension grid (or no grid, as in the case of stapled or adhered tiles). But I'm not aware that this is defined in a formal industry standard such as ASTM or ANSI. For what it's worth, I too have tried to get our clients to make the distinction, not always with success. At times I have just gritted my teeth and added a line to the specifications that "panel" and "tile" are used synonymously in the documents. It's never been an issue with the contractor. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 151 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 03:34 pm:    Rockfon and Armstrong call their 2'x4' as tiles, Certainteed calls theirs as panels. If the manufacturers can't decide, what hope do we have? James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 232 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 03:44 pm:    Having read Dave's and Dewayne's responses I'm going to let our interiors department decide and just request that they be consistent in the drawings and specifications. The size argument is severely undercut now that ceramic TILES can also be had in 24 by 48 inch dimensions. :-) anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 04:23 pm:    James, you are way too generous! Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 05:08 pm:    As luck would have it, We just had a USG rep in our office. I picked up on of their samples which said "Ceiling Panel", I asked her if USG made ceiling tiles or panels? Her response was " we make ceiling tiles" I laughed and showed her the sample and told her about the discussion here. All of my associates agreed that ceiling tiles is the more recognized term. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 05:17 pm:    I have struggled with defining these terms for many years and have come to the conclusion that "ceiling panel" and "ceiling tile" have no intrinsic distinction. Therefore, specifications have to define the required ceiling element. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Brian Payne, AIA Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 134 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 05:27 pm:    I'll have to disagree on the Armstrong terminology...They use the term panels. My first real firm referred to them as ACT. I changed jobs to an ACP firm... then back to an ACT (my current firm), but by that time I had latched on to the ACP terminology mainly because of writing lots of Armstrong ceiling specs. I convinced my current firm to switch to ACP. Three years later, we finally have consistency. It wasn't easy. One reason I switched is because it made sense that acoustical TILE is adhered to the substrate like tile and acoustical PANELS sit in a frame. That's the distinction we have kept and fortunately we never spec adhered tiles, so no issues have occured. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 635 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 05:51 pm:    I too see "tile" and "panel" used interchangeably, even in the same paragraph. But I haven't added a line to the spec stating that either can be used (like I have for "Curtain Wall" and "Window Wall" for some projects). I attended K to 6 school in a classic post-war California public school. Those schools seemed to always have 12-inch square perforated acoustical ceiling "tiles" adhered to a solid plaster, gypsum board or concrete substrate. My 2 cents: That leads me to suggest that acoustical "tiles" are adhered to a substrate just like 09 30 00 Ceramic/Porcelain/Stone tiles. Acoustical "panels" are any size of panel that is supported only at the edges. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 153 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 06:47 pm:    From the Armstrong Website: They use both. Tile Tile Panel James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 233 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 09:59 am:    Thanks to everyone for his response. I'm not sure I see a consensus and I haven't heard back from my interiors group yet. I did send the question to my local Armstrong rep (only late yesterday so still waiting for his reply). I'll have to show him what Dewayne has just posted. Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 12:42 pm:    Part of the issue is informal vs contractual language. Smaller acoustical units (tile) are somewhat different in manufacture and have different installation requirements than lay-in panels, so having two sections makes sense. Of course I'm the kind of guy who is disturbed when elastomeric sealants are called "caulking" on drawings or in meetings, and thinks that "precast concrete" is the soupy stuff in the truck before it is cast in place. ;-> Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 375 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 02:33 pm:    I prefer "calking" to "caulking" in accordance with principle of using simpler spelling. If you disagree, we can go for a waulk and taulk about it. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 1004 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 10:46 pm:    My former firm had an elegant solution: We used ACB (acoustic ceiling board) so both tile and panels were covered. The funny thing is that, after having used ACB for more than twenty years, the standards committee changed it to ACT. Why? Because people were tired of explaining what ACB meant why we didn't use ACT like everyone else.