| Author |
Message |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:07 pm: |    |
I understand that vinyl windows typically have insulated glass and that the assembly can include fire rated glass, however I have never specified this. Insight from anyone who has would be appreciated. |
Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP
Senior Member
Username: rich_gonser
Post Number: 146
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:20 pm: | |
I've never heard of vinyl in that application. The low melting point of vinyl would have me concerned, on the face of it.
When you read the technical reports on the fire rated glass assemblies, it generally has to be hollow metal. There are aluminum storefront systems that are filled with foam, as well as some wood systems. I've yet to see vinyl. |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:28 pm: | |
Certainly one can install fire-rated glazing into any type of window, or framing system. However, it is unlikely one would have a fire-rated opening utilizing fire-rated glazing in a vinyl window, since once the vinyl melts, the glazing would not be held in-place.
Why don’t you research fire-rated glazing and see what you discover? |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:37 pm: | |
Ronald, its the Architect's responsibility to select the product, I don't get paid enough to wear his hat too. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1811
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:39 pm: | |
If vinyl melts in a stairwell are the fumes dangerous? This is an Assisted Living Facility? |
Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wilsonconsulting
Post Number: 233
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:02 pm: | |
I have never heard of fire-rated vinyl windows, either, and would be surprised if any have been developed or tested for fire resistance.
Options are probably limited to steel such as by Fyre-Tec (www.fyre-tec.com/fyre-tec-fire-rated-windows.php) or aluminum like those by Aluflam (www.aluflam-usa.com/windows).
Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP
Wilson Consulting Inc
Ardmore PA |
William C. Pegues
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 957
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:42 pm: | |
I agree that it’s unlikely that there are any fire rated vinyl windows, but one never knows. Understand that the complete window assembly must be tested and listed as a fire rated assembly if installled in a rated wall. Regardless of the framing assembly, you can’t just call for fire rated glazing. And they are expensive.
And if its not a rated wall, you don’t need a rated window.
AAMA has an interesting document here...
http://www.aamanet.org/upload/file/Locked_Online_Vinyl_Windows_Designed_for_Performance.pdf
Where they discuss fire resistance in vinyl windows and debunk a lot of myths associated with vinyl windows and fire resistance (meaning that they do better than most would think they should do). It’s a 13 page small print double column document, sort of everything you do or don’t want to know about vinyl. But, the fire resistance information begins at the bottom of page 5 on the right hand column and is only about 1 page long. Interesting reading, everyone should take a peek.
Perhaps contact AAMA direct, they may know. Or contact one of the better quality vinyl window manufacturers, they would know even if the one you contact does not happen to make them.
What gets me is that with this, as so many times, all you have to do is go to google and enter ‘fire rated vinyl windows’ and you get some spurious but also valid (like the above AAMA pdf) links. Give it a try some time. Don’t make assumptions about how vinyl reacts, go find out.
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:42 pm: | |
If it is not your responsibility to research products, then it must be ours, since you are asking us. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:52 pm: | |
Ronald, I don't have time to check out your past queries on this board, but are you telling me you have never asked this board for assistance on a spec section? I guess you have never written specs in Florida, if you had than you would know exactly why I don't contractually select products for clients, but feel free to start working in Florida, esp So Florida Condominiums and do just that, and see what happens. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1813
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:54 pm: | |
I am being told to specify vinyl windows for this project for all locations, including an egress stairwell, I will comply, but on record I have questioned the decision, since I am not the Architect of record, its not my place to question the decision. |
William C. Pegues
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 958
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 10:06 pm: | |
From above...Foam filled rated windows where the foam is contributing to the fire rating? Really? I don’t see anything about that anywhere. Foam filled is used typically for thermal resistance properties, not fire resistance. And where hollow metal rated windows might have foam in them for better energy management, its not likely there for fire resitance, and may not be permitted to be used in a rated assembly window. For instance, Aluflam window framing for rated aluminum windows are filled with mortar, and its the mortar that makes them fire rated. No mortar, no rating.
I have done numerous projects requiring fire rated window/storefront systems. From interior walls and openings to windows in exterior rated walls (typically because an alley is too narrow that there is not the required separation between building exterior walls.
You don’t need rated windows unless you have a rated wall, or unless the jurisdiction has some specific requirement for rated window assemblies is a particular kind of construction.
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP |
William C. Pegues
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 959
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 10:18 pm: | |
Jerome,
Is the window in question in an exterior wall? Is the exterior wall itself fire rated (typically not, even in an egress stair in many jurisdictions). What does the architect have on the drawings for the rating of the wall where the window goes.
If it is an interior wall that the window is in and it is an egress stair, then the wall is rated (or should be). Then you need a rated window (frame and glazing assembly that bears a rating from the fabricator. If you (or the designer) can tolerate the round edges of hollow metal, that is probably the least expensive. Vinyl has sharper edges so the HM solution will be noticeably different. Then you go aluminum and the best bet is Aluflam, which has nice sharp edges but are heavy being mortar filled. And any hardware for operability must be their selection - everything about the window from glass to framing to hardware has to have been tested as an assembly by the fabricator.
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 06:29 am: | |
William, drawings are not yet complete, but yes this is an exterior OMU wall in a 2 story building. All windows are to be vinyl per the Architect, once submitted for permit if the AHJ requires a different type of window, I can claim an additional service, so I don't know why I am even questioning the AoR. |
William C. Pegues
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 960
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 06:54 am: | |
It still does not matter if it is an exterior wall if the wall is not shown to be rated on the drawings. Egress stair or not, regardless of its construction, exterior walls are seldom rated unless it is too close to another exterior wall, or the jurisdiction has specific requirements related to openings in walls (regardless of construction or ratings) that requires the openings to be rated...again, mostly related to separation in distance from another exterior wall and typically a wall from another building. Narrow alley situation.
If the drawings do not show the wall to be rated or the openings to be rated, and there is no jurisdictional requirement for the wall or openings to be rated, then the window can be material. That’s the starting point, and would let the window be vinyl.
If its actually required to be rated, then it does not matter what the Architect wants, the selection is limited. Even the AAMA document I noted above talks about fire resistance, not about rated openings for vinyl window. And the discussion there and elsewhere seems to be about resistance to exterior fires (wild fires) and how the vinyl window fabrication can have fire resistive properties. That does not mean its capable of passing the required testing to become a rated window.
On top of that, you have the listed products requirement of south FL, and even if there is a rated vinyl window, if its not on that list its probably not going to be on this project.
There seem to be a lot of “ifs” still remaining here make moving forward pretty limited. Primarily the basic one needs to go back to the Architect to find our if the wall is rated, or if there is a requirement for the opening in this wall to be rated, and for that response from them to be documented to include what hour rating is required as it will require a different and VERY expensive window. Even if there is a vinyl fabrication that has passed the required testing to receive a rating, its going to be very expensive and likely (as in the Aluflam window) filled with mortar or something similar.
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 329
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 11:44 am: | |
In reply to, "If vinyl melts in a stairwell are the fumes dangerous?"
1. Melting vinyl does not typically release fumes. Burning vinyl does and is very toxic. See http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire87/PDF/f87015.pdf
2. Vinyl ignites at about 730F degrees. If this occurs in a stairwell, Ii doubt the stairwell is being used.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 997
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 09:13 am: | |
If the window is fire rated, it has been tested, and there will be a label from UL or another lab. I concur with others about doubting that such products exist. When doing the final inspections, the fire marshal will look for that label. When it isn't found, s/he will order that they be taken out.
I havd had instances were non-fire-rated "windows" were used in a rated wall. There was a deluge curtain installed to protect the openings. That may be an option.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
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