| Author |
Message |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 979
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 11:27 am: |    |
For roof ladders, do you typically specify steel, aluminum, or fiberglass? Why? I understand the properties, but I don't know the relative costs or if there is some overriding reason to specify one material. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 838
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 11:47 am: | |
Sheldon,
I specify mil finish alum for interior locations and clear anodized finsih for exterior locations.
Why, because both do not require painting and repainting. |
Brian Payne, AIA
Senior Member
Username: brian_payne
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 12:00 pm: | |
I typically specify Aluminum.
http://okeeffes.com/ladder_type/access-ladders/ |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 993
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 12:19 pm: | |
The steel ladders (even galvanized steel) are still the least expensive. I looked at this some time ago; the firm I was with specified some aluminum ladders and the contractor came back with a VE savings that was considerable.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
|
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 980
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 04:19 pm: | |
Peter: What was the ballpark cost difference? |
Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wilsonconsulting
Post Number: 231
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2017 - 12:02 pm: | |
I often suggest mill or anodized aluminum for exterior ladders, but more often than not my clients (architects) choose the "cheaper" option galvanized steel. I'll bet a life-cycle cost analysis would favor aluminum if a lifetime of repainting were accounted for.
This is an interesting question because it's in a category of issues that probably rarely get asked of the owner -- who may well prefer to avoid the expense and headache of maintaining ladders, particularly in a remote location like a rooftop.
If I were in the designer's role, I'd want at the very least to get guidance from the bldg owner re: their preferences for first-cost vs. life-cycle expenditures.
It's pretty clear in my work as an independent consultant that a lot of decisions are made without considering the owner's objectives for seemingly minor issues like this one. Their clients are obviously paying for that service, but I would guess in a lot of cases they aren't aware of the extent of selections being made on their behalf.
Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP
Wilson Consulting Inc
Ardmore PA |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1807
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2017 - 12:09 pm: | |
Jeffrey, in So FL that galvanized roof ladder would have visible signs of corrosion in 3 years and would probably be considered unsafe in 5, I always specify aluminum for exterior work. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 839
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 09:48 am: | |
Jeffery,
Your last paragraph is so right. This phenomena occurs with unerring regularity. Penny wise, pound foolish.
Wayne |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 995
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 10:45 am: | |
I see galvanized steel stuff on exterior locations in Houston all the time that do not have problems, even after 10 years. It should go without saying that hot-dip galvanizing after fabrication is required, and proper touch up of field welds and abrasions is required.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
|
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 984
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 11:24 am: | |
I've seen a lot of steel railing on sidewalks and stairs. I assume it's hot-dip galvanized, but maybe not. How do I know it's steel? Because of the rust where the steel meets the sidewalk. When it's time to cut budgets, maintenance is among the first targets. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 02:08 pm: | |
When I'm not "allowed" to spec aluminum I spec galvanized steel with an HPC system (tie-coat, epoxy mastic intermediate coat, urethane topcoat). First thing to get VE'd out for house paint.
Can't blame a Specifier for trying. |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 611
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 03:33 pm: | |
Ken, Bingo!
Someone mentioned that a steel roof ladder was less expensive than an aluminum ladder. But wait until you properly finish the steel ladder for the San Francisco Bay Area.
I specify a Contractor's Option:
Option 1: Factory fabricated Aluminum (Someone mentioned the manufacturer we specify).
Option 2: Shop fabricated Galvanized Steel with specified high performance coating.
A couple years ago a Bio-Pharm client we were doing a project with asked if we could come up with a remediation plan for riotously rusting steel miscellaneous metal on a 5 year old open parking garage. Literally, several Nobel prize winners parked their Lamborghinis there and were afraid the rusting steel could be contagious. This garage was within 200 yards of the bay and the original ferrous metal paint spec had not been thought through and was just basic water based products. We gave them a remediation plan and ever since, when a client or contractor questions the need for the complex high performance coating system, I am ready with a couple hundred existing conditions photos to scare them to death with. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 03:49 pm: | |
A few years back I started specifying mill-finish aluminum after specifying galvanized steel with high performance coatings. I realize aluminum is more expensive (or is it, once galvanizing and epoxy/urethane coatings are considered?). For projects with just a few ladders, the impact on the project overall was very slight. Plus, we were doing a lot of public schools, which have difficulty funding maintenance, and may not have the skills or knowledge to repaint exterior steel using high performance coatings. I figure that mill finish aluminum will likely last the life of the building. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 985
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 04:59 pm: | |
Thanks for the comments, most of which support my inclination to use aluminum. I have asked several fabricators for comparative costs with no success, but it seems that there won't be a great difference between aluminum and steel with HDG and a coating. And, as John notes, there rarely are more than one or two.
One area of concern is the connection from ladder to steel support. Isolation is required; does anyone have a detail? I've asked fabricators and got nothing.
I've always thought that it's impossible to weld steel to aluminum, but it can be done. That doesn't mean it happens in construction, though; has anyone seen it in the field? |
Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: edueppen
Post Number: 41
Registered: 08-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:07 am: | |
Maybe it is a regional thing, and I understand the corrosion concerns in coastal areas, but I have never seen an aluminum roof ladder in the upper Midwest. Galvanized steel is the standard - and I request that our architects not paint them! Why create a maintenance issue from day one. |
Anonymous (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 11:55 am: | |
Why are some saying that you need a HPC over the galvanized coating? I understand that it offers a better aesthetic, and longer life as a duplex system ... but these are roof ladders, is the added cost and maintenance of a HPC worth it?
Even in harsh corrosive environments the American Galvanizers Association is giving time frames for first maintenance on galvanized coatings far beyond what any owner would expect.
https://www.galvanizeit.org/education-and-resources/resources/technical-faq-dr-galv/estimating-the-life-expectancy-of-hot-dip-galvanized-coating
My teams commonly specify aluminum for roof ladders, but when they get VE'd to galvanized steel, I'm not losing any sleep over it. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 328
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 04:46 pm: | |
Lightning Protection should be considered when specifying roof ladders. Because the ladders rise above the roof or parapet elevation, they can become the location where lightning attaches to a building.
To avoid the need to mount air terminals on top of ladders, UL 96A--Installation Requirements for Lightning Protection, Paragraph 8.8.1 allows metal handrails 1/8" thick or more to be used as strike termination devices without air terminals.
More, Paragraph 9.1.2 allows "permanent metal handrails that are electrically conductive where the minimum thickness is 0.1026 inch or more shall be permitted to be substituted for main conductors," such as the lightning protection cables that run from one roof level to a lower one.
Most steel and aluminum ladders that I know will satisfy these requirements, but there could be ladders made with thin-walled aluminum extrusions or light-gage steel shapes that do not have the requisite metal thickness; or a ladder may have bolted connections with insufficient electrical continuity.
TAKE AWAY: When specifying roof-top ladders or handrails on buildings with lightning protection, require they comply with NFPA 780 and UL 96A regarding metal thickness and electrical continuity. Contact a lightning protection specialist certified by the Lightning Protection Institute (www.lightning.org) for more assistance.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
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