Gym wall padding locations?

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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1556 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:36 pm:    I am currently working on a school project where the architect is designing minimal wall padding behind the backstops. I have advised the architect that they should really locate wall padding on every wall especially since they have only 3 feet run out space between the out of bounds lines and wall. Are there any guidelines on where to locate wall padding and how much padding should be used? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 04:51 pm:    Not to be condescending, but are you "designing" the project...unless A/E is asking you for design suggestions? It's the (Architect's) design drawings that should show location and extent of specified products and materials? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1557 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 06:21 pm:    Yes, the architect is designing the building. But when a person is seriously injured, you can bet I will be called into court because I specified the wall pads. Specifiers have a moral and ethical obligation to inform design professionals when there is a perceived safety problem. The architect can then decide to follow my advice or ignore it. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1068 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 06:30 pm:    Guest, unless the designer tells me to back off, I will speak up. My reputation comes with my spec. Just because the designer ignores the wall in front of his/her face doesn't mean that we have to let people run into it. You ever play basketball like you mean it? Anonymous (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 06:55 pm:    Don't stop with the wall padding! Make sure you find an industry standard addressing the right 'bounce' in the gym floor to reduce fatigue and stress related injuries from running and jumping on the court. What about when a player sprains their ankle? Is the specifier going to get called into court because they specified the floor finish? What about 'floor burns' when a player gets pushed and slides on the floor when they fall? Should you also advise the architect to provide knee and elbow pads for all potential users? Where does it stop? If the supposed moral and ethical obligation relates to perceived safety problems, whose perception governs ... mine, yours, the owner's, the potential user's? anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 06:32 pm:    I disagree that a specifier, working as a consultant to an architect, has any sort of moral or ethical responsibility to "inform" a design professional of a "perceived" safety problem for specifying wall pads near a basketball hoop. That is pure armchair attorney hogwash, David. You have no more risk being "called into court" for specifying wall pads than you would for specifying anything else. It's not you signing/sealing the documents. And I highly doubt that your client has much of a counter claim against you were he or she to be "called into court" because of the specified wall pads. I assume that independent specifiers have good language in their agreements that prevents such a thing - yours included. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1558 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 07:37 pm:    I specified the wood athletic floor as a DIN rated system for the safety of the users. As a specifier, I am a design professional and an integral member of the design team. In addition to specifications, I provide professional advice to my clients. If my clients just want specifications blindly typed up, then they would be much better off hiring a word processor. Where I excel, and what my clients really pay me for, is my years of experience and my accumulated professional knowledge. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 07:47 pm:    Kudos!!! That is what I do also. Wouldn't want it any other way. Otherwise, what good would 40 years of beating your head against a wall do? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:23 pm:    David - to your original question, what type of school is it? A high school basketball court may have different guidelines than an elementary school with a basketball court in a multipurpose room. Regarding your responsibility, perhaps it is enough to send an email to your client raising the concern. Then let it go; you have to pick your battles. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1069 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 08:52 am:    As to the wood floor, someone on the team does need to determine which floor is right for the application. A wood dance floor has very different properties than a wood basketball floor. Wood athletic floor manufacturers make available facilities where designers can take athletic directors to 'test drive' various floor systems to see which ones provide the best performance with a clear understanding of relative costs. The wrong floor can absolutely cause injury as well as create either an excellent or horrible experience for the end users. A good Specifier will go that extra mile to learn this sort of thing and make this information available to their designers. Intelligent designers appreciate that level of expertise from Specifiers and tend to seek out Specifiers who can provide that type of service. It makes for a much more positive experience for all members of the design team. Anonymous (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 11:12 am:    David, why did you only specify a DIN Rated floor? All that says is that it has been tested according to the DIN standard. Why not a DIN Certified floor, or at a minimum DIN Compliant giving the assurance that the floor passes testing for ball rebound and shock absorption. What happens when the owner can't afford a DIN Rated floor, and can only afford to paint some lines on concrete? For moral and ethical reasons due to the safety of the users do you refuse to write the specs in those instances? Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 11:46 am:    Each athletic association establishes game and court construction rules, including minimum padding for walls, uprights, and backstops, etc. To what standards is the court constructed? The National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS)is often used for schools unless professional-sport rules are being used. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1559 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 05:53 pm:    The gym is in an elementary school. As design professionals, we are held to a reasonable level of care. We have a duty to design a safe and secure building for the occupants, structure, and contents. If someone is injured/killed and the building's design is deemed deficient, we can be held liable. Again, we are held to a "reasonable level of care." Meaning that other design professionals would design the building in a similiar manner. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Another (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2017 - 11:33 am:    Has it been established that you are the registered architect designing the building? Can you point to the law or regulation that indicates that specification consultants have moral and ethical obligation to the HSW of the public? Seems to me that your standard of care would be to specify the padding per the design professional's request. They are the one in responsible charge of the specifications when they stamp and sign them. Even if they could deflect their professional liability onto you (which they can't), the padding locations wouldn't be noted in the specification anyway so you'd have nothing to worry about. Perhaps you were hired to perform a safety evaluation as well as write the specifications? Even then, given that you had to come to the forum to ask if there were any guidelines governing the design of the court tells me you're outside of your area of expertise. I'd argue that a good, valuable consultant knows when to defer to the experts. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1711 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2017 - 12:14 pm:    I'm not sure why "Another" and "Anonymous" are pushing back on David's request so much (bordering on trolling - easy if you're anonymous). As a consultant to the architect, it makes perfect sense to point out issues that, in the specifier's opinion, should be reconsidered. Even if the specs don't locate the pads, why not advise the architect of a possibly better solution? Most architects appreciate this sort of input from a knowledgeable consultant. As to liability, maybe there likely isn't any, but that never stopped an attorney from dragging someone into court where they have to defend themselves at possibly great expense. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 180 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2017 - 02:04 pm:    Ken H: Your comment "You ever play basketball like you mean it?" made my day! Phil Babinec Senior Member Username: pbabinec Post Number: 19 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 01:49 pm:    As both a specifer and a wrestling coach, I prefer my mats on the floor! "The sight I adore on a basketball floor, are wrestling mats, from door to door." Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 281 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 02:01 pm:    "If you share the space with basketball, You may need to store mats on the wall" Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 677 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 02:17 pm:    and some people wonder why specifiers often don't get respect, then argue we should just keep our heads down and follow instructions without offering any of our expertise to demonstrate our value to the team. SMH David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1564 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 05:27 pm:    Robin, I agree! If we specifiers are ever going to get the respect we deserve, they we need to start acting like trusted advisers not just typists! BTW, did I mention that the long side of the court will be floor to ceiling glazed storefront?!!! David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 298 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 05:34 pm:    Storefront? Hope the glazing and framing are designed for the inevitable impact loads. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1074 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 05:50 pm:    Because sound reverberation won't already be painful enough? If you don't get a concussion at least you can blow out your eardrums? Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 315 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, May 19, 2017 - 08:51 am:    David, Hearing about this gym makes my brain hurt! Is the Architect designing the full height solar control curtain now or pushing it into FF+E? It's sure to be a beautiful thing, black and dragging on the floor. -