Rainscreen Cladding Designations Prob...

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Author Message Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 703 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 12:51 pm:    I am working with the 800 lbs gorrilla, OSHPD here in California, trying to get Taktl precast concrete rainscreen panels approved for use in an exterior rainscreen cladding application on a southern california hospital project. OSHPD keeps trying to characterize these panels as fiber cement siding, and wants us to evaluate them per ICC-ES document AC90 "ACCEPTANCE CRITERIA FOR FIBER CEMENT SIDING USED AS EXTERIOR WALL SIDING (AC90) " I can't find a PDF version online to share with you, other than the official for sale document: http://shop.iccsafe.org/ac90-fiber-cement-siding-used-as-exterior-wall-siding-approved-june-2012-editorially-revised-sept-2015-pdf-download.html (note, I have the document, I was just posting the link for others who want to see it). Taktl is not a siding panel like Hardiboard or Certainteed or similar. It's more of an UHCP product, and its a decorative non-structural fenestration element, not cladding or siding. Can anyone reccommend a more rainscreen specific ISS-ES categorization that might help me get OSHPD to view this product more accurately? J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 952 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 01:39 pm:    I saw this project 8 months ago and immediately though it more like GFRC, but when I look at it again, I don't see any fibers at all. It is definitely more like cast stone and GFRC than fiber cement. One of the problems with such products is that the manufacturers don't seem to think that it is important to support efforts such as yours. It may be that it will have to comply with the acceptance criteria referenced until such time as someone comes to their senses. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 961 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 01:41 pm:    Why can't manufacturers provide the documentation needed to use their products? Why should you do their research for them? I know, I know; it's because an architect saw a picture of a cool product and wants to use it. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 704 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 01:49 pm:    Jordan, I got a good laugh out of that. OSHPD and coming to their senses in the same sentence. Hilarious! J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 953 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 03:14 pm:    Now, now, now... I tell my clients that my fee is good enough that I can be cynical for everyone on the design team. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Brian E. Trimble, CDT Senior Member Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt Post Number: 92 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 04:01 pm:    If you look at TAKTL's website, they do say they meet ASTM C1186 on fiber cement panels, but they don't have any ICC ES reports listed. They also list some properties that they meet, but not much else. A lot of our mason contractors are installing TAKTL panels and other rain screen products. We even started training sessions for masons on their installation since they have become so popular. I think their popularity has gotten out in front of proper documentation, especially for the newer companies jumping on the bandwagon. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2017 - 04:39 pm:    To be dumb about this, Taktl is precast concrete. Specify it by performance and reference to PCA and ACI requirements and get the engineer of record to submit design calcs. Don't call it Taktl. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 811 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 04:27 pm:    This appears to be regulatory overreach by OSHPD, nothing new. Ask them what is the regulation that you are violating and then ask them where OSHPD has adopted the ICC-ES AC. You should also motivate the manufacture to push back at OSHPD for regulatory overreach. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 809 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 09:47 am:    I contacted Tom Flannery of TAKTL about an ICC-ES Report. It all takes time. Below is his response. Hi Wayne, We are unfortunately still about 2 months out from receiving our ICC report. We've submitted all of the data and received notification that all of the testing is in place, but at this point we are just waiting for the report to be published. That said, we have completed a number of DSA projects and are currently installing material on a few OSHPD projects based on alternate means of compliance. If you have a specific agency that you are looking to submit the ICC report to, I'd be happy to reach out to them and get a sense for what they would accept for an AMOC while we wait for the ICC report. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you have any questions. Thanks- Tom Tom Flannery Designer | Project Manager, West Region M 805•698•7276 | Tom.flannery@taktl-llc.com 230 Braddock Avenue | Keystone Commons Portal 9 Turtle Creek, PA 15145 taktl-llc.com | situ-urban.com Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 52 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 10:10 am:    I have specified Taktl on a couple of projects. The material is ultra-high-performance concrete (UHPC). It is not precast concrete in the usual sense and it is very different from cast stone. It contains glass fibers, but the way it is produced and cured give it properties that greatly exceed those required to meet ASTM C1186 for fiber-cement panels. As far as I know, Taktl is the only manufacturer who offers a range of rainscreen panel designs and colors made from UHPC, but UHPC is also produced by LaFarge who in theory could make similar panels. Nevertheless, I have ended up writing a proprietary specification naming a specific panel design and color from Taktl. I agree with comments above regarding frustration with lack of standardized terminology and conformance to established standards. At least Taktl products have been tested according to criteria that can be compared with other products such as fiber-cement panels. In my specifications I listed performance criteria and stated that the material must exceed ASTM C1186 when tested according to ASTM C1185. And I totally understand the appeal of these panels to Architects - they are visually interesting with a variety of textures/patterns and colors. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 705 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 11:59 am:    Wayne, my project is the first of those "few OSHPD projects" Tom Flannery is mentioning, and its currently being maligned by this mis-characterization as a fiber cement siding. Greta, we have three buildings on campus with Taktl, only one of them is OSHPD. The other two are nearly finished. A valuable lesson learned in our application of Taktl is that their color consistency is Not Good. If you want a monolithic color, specify their Color Seal coating, but make sure your architect sees that first, they may not like it, because it makes the panels look a bit...plasticky, and less cementitious. The natural finish panels can exhibit a significant amount of color variation. Its been a real challenge for us Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 810 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 12:06 pm:    Nathan, Thank you for the warning regarding color variation. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 03:54 pm:    UHPC is rich in very fine particles that precisely mold to the forms. It is usually formed with almost mirror-like surfaces that will accentuate minor color variations. Assuming they don't screw up the mixture from batch to batch, most of these variations are superficial and can be made less apparent by mechanically abrading the surface or using textured forms that scatter reflected light. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 260 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 03:56 pm:    As an alternative to UHPC, take a look at http://www.kreysler.com/, Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 53 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 10:43 am:    Thanks, Michael, for introducing us to Kreysler. I am always on the look-out for products that can be considered by project teams as alternative materials, and these look wonderfullly versatile. I do note that Kreysler refers to their panels as "Architectural Composites" and they are actually fiber-reinforced polymer (FRP)- which is going to have very different performance characteristics than UHPC. I think the word "alternative" is good; the term "equivalent" would not be. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 12:31 pm:    A useful reference about architectural composites is available from American Composites Manufacturers Association: Guidelines and Recommended Practices for Fiber-Reinforced-Polymer (FRP) Architectural Products Download at www.surveymonkey.com/r/ArchDiv Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 811 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 01:26 pm:    Michael, Good timing. Thanks for the information. I am preparing a new section for this very product for a new XXXXX outlet store in Irvine CA.