Vanilla Box Build Out

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1744 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 12:51 pm:    I am specifying the Vanilla shell build out of a retail space, shell is in place, current ceiling is exposed metal deck over metal roof joists. Specs will be in the form of an addenda to the original Project Manual for the shell construction. The building owner will pay for sound attenuation boards secured to underside of metal deck between joists, however I am concerned about lack of sound control at the gaps created by the sound attenuation boards at the metal joists. Would spray cellulose insulation be a better solution? No STC value was given, tenant is a dry cleaner. Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 01:25 pm:    I would be most concerned about flanking noise to adjacent tenants. Most retail demising walls that I know are at best STC 35-38. And the top/bottom are not sealed. I suggest they seal the top of the walls with mineral wool like a fire rated wall. The bottom of the gyp would have an acoustical sealant. ALL penetrations sealed as well. Small openings can transmit more sound than people think. I'm sure you can discuss wall options with your client by using the gypsum manual sound ratings. What is proposed in very similar to my performing arts "Black Box" spaces. The semi-rigid board insulation (same as duct liner like Knauf) keeps the reverberation down. Small gaps at the joists won't do much. The joists themselves would likely deflect, not reflect the sound. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1707 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 03:24 pm:    What is the goal of the sound attenuation? Are you reducing interior noise reverberation, or trying to reduce noise coming through the roof assembly from the exterior? Sound attenuation blankets alone (assume they meet flame spread ratings needed if exposed) will do some good in the first, but I think they would do little in the second. You really need to add mass (i.e., layers of drywall) to accomplish the second with any degree of success. Flanking noise can be an issue, but roof openings such as skylights, HVAC, etc, are likely to be a significant contributor. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1745 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 03:48 pm:    The landlord won't say why the lease calls for sound attenuation board, it just does. Perhaps the landlord though it would be cheaper than finishing drywall. Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 03:50 pm:    Your initial comment sounds more like sound impact from the tenant, not from the outside. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 04:07 pm:    Is the space fire sprinklered? If so, where are the sprinklers located? Can you install the sound deadening material at bottom of joists? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1060 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 06:29 pm:    If the desire is to reduce machinery noise in the dry cleaners, spray cellulose might be a good option as long as they are not using nasty chemicals that will get trapped in the cellulose (or in the batt/board). The sprayed product is pretty good at being applied continuously and works great to decrease noise within the space. Besides, it should be able to stay above the sprinklers. I would prefer it to the board/batt. As to sound transmission, not so much. As John noted above, you need mass for that. Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 08:13 pm:    I agree with Ken's input. I think it makes more sense in a retail environment. It would likely cost less. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 51 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 08:01 am:    What is being done to separate the dry cleaner's space from spaces of adjacent tenants in terms of air infiltration and moisture control? If the tenant will be doing the actual cleaning in the space, transfer of odors from cleaning solvents and moisture from professional wet cleaning or steam ironing may be even greater concerns than sound control. Perhaps something like a closed-cell spray polyurethane foam could accomplish several things, but it will need to be separated from interior space with a fire-resistant barrier. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 11:26 am:    Vanilla box requirements for retail landlords are usually detailed in an Exhibit and are normally quite specific. Any special requirements for the tenant's operations are equally detailed and separate from the landlord's share of the work. I would be very careful about adding anything to the menu provided, even if it seems like the right thing to do. The down side to VB retail work is no decisions to make but no money. Alternatively, the up side is no money but no decisions to make.