Not familar with Brick Construction...

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1705 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 01:44 pm:    I am not experienced with brick construction, in my region, brick is used for decoration, veneer mostly over CMU. So when a client sent me an email today asking me to change a manufactured brick masonry veneer spec to "true brick facing" I admit to being confused. I came to my friends on 4specs for help. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 650 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 01:54 pm:    i would double check if they mean a full-size brick veneer or a thin brick. The first is an anchored system with lot's of nuances and the second is installed similar to the manufactured brick (or even thin set mortar) Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1706 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:02 pm:    Robin, the client is not going to pay for a true brick installation, in fact they will force me to write the spec and than VE it as soon as they realize the cost. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 651 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:05 pm:    Then i guess i don't understand your question Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1707 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:14 pm:    Robin, I am asking if anyone on this forum has heard of or made reference to "true brick facing"? When I asked my client, their answer was "you mean you don't know?" In So FL head games are part of doing business, its been a bad week so far, and my sanity is being challenged, so I am asking my peers for some guidance. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1016 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:39 pm:    I tried to get my brick to take an oath that it was telling the truth but I got stonewalled. I defy your architect to find a Brick Industry Association Technical Note - http://www.gobrick.com/Technical-Notes that defines "True Brick" or anything close to that. My guess is that they think they want a full-size brick veneer over some sort of substrate (CMU, Sheathing on studs, other), hopefully with air barrier, cavity, weeps, and flashing (and maybe even insulation). It used to be very popular in the Mid-Atlantic and is a great system but it is very expensive. More likely if you end up with clay on your building it will be pressed into a vertically applied mortar bed on some type of solid substrate. Both brick types are true; the installation methods differ and they perform differently. Anyone using the second method in SFL should be jailed for attempted murder because when those brick release from the mortar, they will become dangerous missiles. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 652 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:43 pm:    I have heard "true brick facing". Half the time my clients mean full size anchored brick veneer and the other half they mean a thin brick adhered veneer. I suggest sending the a link to examples of both and asking for clarification. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 214 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:44 pm:    Ask client for a detail of the installation or a product cut sheet. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 156 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:49 pm:    Jerome, I think you will be safe if you assume "true brick facing" means a full-sized brick (Standard, Modular, Norman, Roman, et al) complying with ASTM C216 with the appropriate ties, anchors, and venting/weep system. In my world, facing brick fits this definition. Further assurance can be found in Technical Notes on Brick Construction (BIA). One you might find especially useful is Technical Notes 2 - Glossary of Terms Relating to Brick Masonry (http://www.gobrick.com/Portals/25/docs/Technical%20Notes/TN2.pdf) Best of luck to you. Don't let those developers get you down. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1017 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:50 pm:    Miracote used to have an acrylic coating stencil system where they could imitate brick. They preferred concrete backup but could put it on cement board as well. From 20 feet away you could even pretend that it looked like the real thing if you squinted a little. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1708 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:51 pm:    Ken, I see your sense of humor is back, if I ever get roasted, I know who to call. Lack of a hurricane in So FL in 10 years has made many complacent, if a storm does come our way I will be inside far away from the city and high rise buildings and tidal waves. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1709 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 02:57 pm:    Ken, a good stucco plasterer can imitate brick, its been done for years in So FL, it does look cheap and is still used on low income multi-family housing. Miracote is too expensive. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1710 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 03:03 pm:    Thanks David for the info and link. Developers don't get me down anymore, I seldom work for them, its the architects who won't stand up for themselves that gets to me. Its sad to watch. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1711 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 04:05 pm:    Finally a response from my client: Real brick facing 2”x4”x8” modular units with ties, lintles, footings, drainage etc. However this will require work beyond the scope of my agreement, which is already over budget from performing favors on this project. The Architect has not requested a fee and has advised holding off, which on a day like today is music to my ears. Thanks to all for responding, great links and a few laughs, if only it was a better day. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 04:23 pm:    Sounds as if you got it worked out, Jerome. Seems like an unusual size to label as modular - I think 2-2/3" would be a more usual dimension than the 2" they indicated. Here's some pretty good info on thin brick for the future. I think I've only used it embedded in precast, but there are other ways to install it. This brochure features some Florida projects. http://www.endicott.com/pdf/endicottThinBrickApplications.pdf David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1510 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - 12:53 pm:    Out in my corner of the country, the Masonry Institute of Washington has put together a very informative guide to masonry construction called the '2016 Masonry Systems Guide.' http://www.masonrysystemsguide.com/ The masonry systems guide is available in a print version, online version and downloadable version. The PDF version is available here: (It is a huge file so it may take a while to download.) http://www.masonrysystemsguide.com/ This guide has lots of information on the construction of the eight types of masonry walls. The guide also has information on weather barriers, flashings, insulation, wire ties, etc. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1712 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - 01:10 pm:    Thanks David for the great links. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 92 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - 01:28 pm:    Thanks for the link David, took 3 minutes for the download, not bad at all. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - 03:03 pm:    This may be an opportunity to turn your knowledge about masonry into cash. The GLG Group has a panel of "experts" that they make available to financial analysts, lawyers, and others that may need info in a hurry. They pay well and quickly for brief phone consultations. Here is the letter I got from them recently; it may have expired, but I suggest you get on their panel for future consultations. "I’m writing to introduce the below opportunity on the US and Canadian Brick Industry. Specifically, my client would like to discuss the competitive landscape, major players, major trends (headwinds/tailwinds) and key innovations in the market today. "Based on your background, I thought you would be an excellent fit! They would like to have a conversation today, 9/20. "Please let me know by accepting the opportunity at the following link: https://services.glgresearch.com/cm-accept/accept?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJtZWV0aW5nSWQiOjIwNzk3MTgzLCJwZXJzb25JZCI6MTExMzIzLCJjbUlkIjoxMDY0MzUsImlhdCI6MTQ3NDM3ODg5NH0.IIAREpue9U2wWsLJNVhBXCx2uLI2iq3Lll45l4rXyp8 For more detail, here is the full project description: One of our clients, a project team at a professional services firm, would like to speak to professionals who are knowledgeable about the brick market. Specifically they would like to discuss the competitive landscape, major trends (ie. growth outlook, headwinds/tailwinds), and any key innovations in the space. Please Note: Our client is working on behalf of a Private Equity Firm Only public, non-confidential information may be shared or discussed, and you are neither expected nor permitted to discuss your current employer. Thanks, Lydia Gerard lgerard@glgroup.com | (512) 717-8360 Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 928 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, September 23, 2016 - 02:53 pm:    There are many things to consider when specifying brick. http://swspecificthoughts.blogspot.com/2013/05/when-is-queen-not-queen.html Brian E. Trimble, CDT Senior Member Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt Post Number: 86 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 09:01 pm:    Just getting back from vacation, so I wasn't able to chime in, but it looks like you got it covered. One more thing besides the Masonry Inst. of Wash. info is some of our (IMI) 3D details from our website (www.imiweb.org). There are hundreds of masonry details that hopefully explain masonry construction well.