replacing balcony soffits

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Author Message Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 645 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 03:34 pm:    The balcony soffits in my condo are moisture-resistant gypsum board (greenboard) that have been skim-coated with joint compound, probably setting type. Areas of gypsum board on several balconies have been failing after having been in place many years, apparently due to moisture vapor in the unventilated space above the soffit. These are fully exterior balconies, no interior or enclosed space above. I am looking for ideas to replace the soffits. Given my druthers I’d use Portland cement plaster on galvanized metal lath, but it’s funny how important cost becomes when you’re paying for it yourself. G-P DensGlass Silver has been recommended to me as a possible solution. I am not familiar with this product, only with DensGlass Gold. Does anyone have experience with this product for use as a soffit material? Can the exposed face of Silver be painted, or does it need to be skim-coated? If it has to be skim-coated, is DensGlass Gold be a better product for the use? I also plan to ventilate the space above the soffit, probably with a vented perimeter edge trim. Thanks for any ideas you may have. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1407 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 03:57 pm:    Dave, I have specified in the past for similar situations glass-mat gypsum board with a direct-applied finish system (DAFS), which is essentially an EIFS without the "I." Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 646 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 07:26 pm:    Good idea Ron. I'm more comfortable with DAFS than with setting-type joint compound, both in terms of water resistance and in ease of application. Thanks. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 10:01 pm:    Dave asked for ideas, so let's not limit our replies to flat monolithic-looking finishes. What are your IDEAS. Given my druther, I would use corrugated galvanized steel sheet. Consider... Lightweight, easily installed, does not need painting now or in future, has a nice spangle now that will form a beautiful patina, light will ripple off the corrugations -- reflected sunlight by day and interior light by night, readily recyclable without loss of material value, will not rot, the ends of the panels allow ventilation, etc. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1408 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 10:31 pm:    Challenge accepted... Use multiwalled structured polycarbonate glazing. But, before installing that, install fiberoptic lighting system (No bulbs to change) to make the entire soffit light up at night time. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 02:03 am:    Vines: Grape, wisteria, morning glory, jasmine, beans, cucumbers. With birdhouses on each balcony and bee hives on the roof. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 192 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 09:40 am:    Back to the less creative. . . I usually suggest DAFS (which I refer to as DEFS -- Direct-Applied Exterior Finish Systems) as an alternative to exterior gyp board soffits. I'm glad you got many years of service from the gyp, Dave. I have seen them fail within a year -- usually at edges where wind-driven rain tends to collect if there is a drip edge condition. Cement board is a better substrate for long-term durability, in my opinion. Sto markets a system that is specifically for use on a glass-mat gyp substrate: StoQuik Gold Soffit, which I have in my office master. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 898 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 11:05 am:    I have specified DEFS infrequently for a number of years. The product data for this system cautions that it is for horizontal, "protected" applications only. Designers will be tempted to trim out the system with similar construction which should be a "no-no", but is definitely a firm "hell no." for applications at the outer edge of the soffit. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 12:13 pm:    I recently learned that Dryvit offers DEFS for walls: "Cement Board MD Finish System" which is a drainable assembly. Drainage strips are applied over a water-resistive barrier, and the cement board is outboard of the drainage cavity. This was proposed by a CM in lieu of traditional cement plaster spec'd for a project, so I revised the spec and added this system to my DEFS master. Seems like it ought to work -- we'll see how it goes. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 790 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 02:19 pm:    Suggest that when the soffit has been removed you have an engineer inspect for structural damage as a result of the moisture. This could also be an opportunity to identify/verify the source of the moisture. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 02:27 pm:    Install a 3d printer in lobby and let each tenant create their own ceiling. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 647 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 04:05 pm:    I agree with you, Mark. Actually we did have an engineer go up in a bucket recently, to inspect the walls when separate brick repairs were being carried out; their report is due shortly. I suspect a cause of the problem is deteriorated or non-existent flashing. The most prudent, and most expensive, solution would be to remove brick, install new flashing, and reinstall the brick. Otherwise, I like the StoQuik Gold Soffit system which Jeffrey mentioned, combined with continuous perimeter venting trim such as PB "F" Vented Reveals by Vinyl Corp. Even better if the StoQuik can be used with fiber cement board instead of DensGlass Gold. Thanks to all for your creative replies. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 04:17 pm:    Mirrors. Tenants can sit in their apartment and see what is happening on the ground below without having to stand up. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 548 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 07:46 pm:    Perhaps a solution that could combine these ideas would be to mount a flat screen monitor on the soffit so that you could set up a slide show to scroll through images of all of these options. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1651 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 08:01 pm:    Steven, I am surprised at your post, I usually find you posts informative and interesting, except for the last one, which is just downright mean. I admit some of the posts were bizarre, but all were supportive, even Michael's. Perhaps the Father's Day Fairy missed your house today. It missed mine too, my daughter has been in the hospital for 52 days fighting bacterial infections that won't go away, and since my wife died 6 years ago from a staff infection she could not fight, I am pissed at the world these days, still I lurk, but don't post much. Happy Dad's day Steven & all other Dad's lurking today, and a special shout out to Ken Hercenberg, get well soon Ken. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2083 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 08:39 pm:    Prayers, Jerome, for a complete recovery. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 549 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 03:30 pm:    Jerome, I have re-read my post for the tenth time and cannot find an ounce of mean or lurking in it. My prayers go to the recovery of your daughter. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 03:35 pm:    My final idea.... I don't care what the soffit is made with, as long you provide clothes lines on balconies so tenants can use renewable energy to dry their washed clothing. (There ought to be a LEED innovation credit for this.) Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Bryan Stanley (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 03:22 pm:    Dave: I completely agree with the DEFS/DAFS "supporters". Glass Mat sheathing as your new soffit substrate and proceed with the the fiberglass mesh embeded into a polymer-based base coat. An Acrylic finish applied, but, make sure you use same manufacturer of the three products. Accessories and vent screeds should all be Exterior grade plastic. Plastic Components make accessories specifically for DEFS/DAFS systems. this system for soffits is light (only a few pounds per sq') cost effective and attractive (in my opinion) Plus the system is very crack-resistent. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1652 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 12:30 am:    Seriously Steve, perhaps you should have someone read it to you, your post mocks the solutions given by others on this thread, perhaps I should not have posted, my mind is elsewhere these days. My apologies. Michael, so you wouldn't mind spending a mil on a condo only to look out your window to see your neighbor's undies hanging out to dry, not the kind of relaxing view I want in retirement. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 144 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:37 am:    I know this is going to get me in trouble, but I just can't help myself: When the posts from down south start sounding so blue, We know that nap time there is far past due. Though Michael and Steve try lightening the discussions, Times such as these yield glum repercussions. But be brave 4spec-ers, keep battling the boring And soon you may hear some Miami-style snoring. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 295 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:54 am:    Dave, Without knowing what your condo building looks like, have you considered something simpler, like cellular PVC beadboard panels? - Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 168 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 12:48 pm:    Jerome - Laundry drying in the sun has many benefits: - colorful. more attractive than many building materials (see http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/27/article-0-163AE3C2000005DC-749_964x641.jpg) - neighborly, - animated in breeze, - ever changing vistas like forest foliage, - evaporative cooling, - zero burden on environment, - lower operating cost, - meditative and gentle exercise, - less wear on fabrics, - no toxic chemicals used for "static cling", - space for drying machine is available for other purposes, - UV sanitation of clothing - Eliminate machine noise and vibration, - Reduced capital cost for machine - More convenient than going to dryer down the hall or down the street - No air pollution from dryer lint. - Shade for the balcony. I have been line drying my clothes for decades. While I have the benefit of southern californian heat most of the year, I am even able to line dry my clothes during our rainy season. And in freezing zones, line drying can still be used most of the time. It is one of the most practical of green building techniques. Stimulated by this discussion, I have submitted a proposal to MasterFormat to change name of Section 10 28 23.16 Clothes Drying Racks to include "and Lines" Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1653 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 02:20 pm:    Michael, what does your last post have to do with Dave's original query? Perhaps you should start a new post. For many of us who live in communities governed by HOA's, your argument holds no chance of approval, I served on the ARB for my HOA for 15 years, clothes lines are not allowed in the by-laws. Those who have tried to challenge them have failed. On a personal note Michael, you are insane, just my opinon. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1654 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 02:23 pm:    David, just when I started respecting your posts, you have to show your true colors, I have a 5 letter word for you David, starts with p, rhymes with trick... Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 03:09 pm:    I apologize to anyone that I offended with my replies to David's inquiry about replacing soffits. While intended to be lighthearted, my ideas were also a prod to encourage fresh thinking and may have crossed the line of what is appropriate on this site. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru user (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 03:41 pm:    It appears that it is time for Mr. Lazar to take a break from reading / posting, especially in the middle of the night. And, name calling should not be allowed on this discussion, or any other, thread. Please delete post No. 1654. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 145 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 04:53 pm:    Jerome: You are right in my case. Doggerel verse is never in good taste. I offer my apologies and hope you will not stop posting. Even though we have our dust-ups you are a brother to all specifiers, and I respect your knowledge. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 550 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 06:14 pm:    I have not heard of DensGlass Silver, so I spent the last 20 minutes trying to compare it to DensGlass Gold. My work has been strictly non-residential and DensGass Silver seems to be marketed to residential projects because they call it "Residential Structural Wall Sheathing": http://sweets.construction.com/swts_content_files/1090/E830585.pdf Comparing is difficult because I never found a web place where G-P provides a data spreadsheet with apples to apples test data for both. But by comparing the separate product data sheets there are some differences. Silver has a different facing because it is not completely non-combustible like Gold is. Silver notes flame spread/smoke developed of 15/5 referencing ASTM E 84 and ULC S102 while Gold notes 0/0. The R values are intangibly different as well. I would want to have my local G-P tech rep walk me through the differences before a jumped ship from DensGlass Gold, but I assume these differences come down to price. Silver, marketed to the residential market is different from Gold in ways that allow it to be sold for a lower cost. Ron Geren gave good advice at the top of this thread regarding a good remedial approach. An exterior mat-faced gypsum product with an EIFS finish coat sound like the correct approach. I would only add the need to be sure that you ventilate every void space in the framing. Perimeter vents will do no good if blocking or cross framing creates void spaces that the vents won't reach. If the extra depth isn't an issue you could add sleeper cross framing perpendicular to the existing framing so that the gap between the sleepers allowed air to pass between all of the framing voids. Dave, the original poster, sounds as if he is doing some research to assist the condo HOA. What isn't clear is if this will be put out to bids by General Contractors to replace all of the soffits in one go or if this would be a one unit at a time fix done by Condo staff or by a one pickup truck small Contractor. The professional level and competence of the installers would inform the selection of repair procedure. Also, if this is an 8 unit complex or an 800 unit complex. I live within 15 miles of the horrendous 2015 balcony collapse in Berkeley, so prompt attention to this issue is prudent and appropriate. Prepare a Power Point presentation of the Berkeley story to play before any value engineering meetings. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1488 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 08:04 pm:    Georgia Pacific DensGlass Silver is no longer in production. It was some goofy product with paper face on one side and glass fiber on the other. I recommend Georgia Pacific DensArmor Plus with a skim coat. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 900 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 08:36 pm:    I would argue for the DensGlass Gold or some similar sheathing product. The DensArmor Plus is really more of an interior product. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1655 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:37 pm:    Dave, what ever you use, please make sure you review the warranty carefully for your application. Some of the newer materials have limitations. Has anyone mentioned HardieBoard, I recently specified it for soffits on a resort in Barbados, CM had been involved in several previous results all thru the Caribbean and swears that Fiber Cement Board holds up better than any other material. Swiss Pearl and Nichia manu some nifty panels, which I am sure you are familiar with. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1656 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:10 pm:    David, I had to look up "doggerel", learn something every day on 4specs. Apology accepted, as I said its been a difficult week, I too apologize, after 54 days hospitalized, my daughter has been re-diagnosed with the same disease she had 53 days ago, which means at least another 28 days in hospital. Could be longer since she blew an embolism today, hell (sorry "User") my wife had cancer and was never hospitalized for thatlong continuously, so much for modern medicine. Somehow my daughter got re-infected, and although her doctors said the bacteria was gone, well they were wrong. We can all be wrong, but these doctors are making a habit of it, time to rattle some cages tomorrow. Could be worse, a client and friend's daughter has a form of MRSA that may require amputation, scary bacteria out there. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1657 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:11 pm:    Hey unregistered "User", middle of the night for you is not the same for me, I don't see hours of operation posted by Colin, perhaps you should show yourself instead of hiding your name and your real intent. As far as my derogatory comment I've been called much worse in this industry, I would never use the actual word, but since David used the rhyme format I decided to follow through. "User", I will accept Colin deleting my post as long as he deletes yours. I understand there are reasons to post anon, but you haven't even registered on this board, why should you be allowed to post in the first place. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1658 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:26 pm:    Dave, perhaps you should take this opportunity to create an iconic building, similar to what Yaacov Agam did during the Miami Vice era on the Villa Regina Condo. A client is on the ARB for the condo, they recently repainted the building and worked hard to restore the original rainbow of colors. http://www.miamicondoinvestments.com/villa-regina/brickells-villa-regina-known-for-its-yaacov-agam-rainbow-facade-is-redoing-its-lobby Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1659 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:38 pm:    Hey "User" don't bother checking out the link, I expect Miami Vice was too risqué for your taste, but that era brought some interesting architecture to Miami. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1660 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:44 pm:    Michael, thanks for the call, I rescind my "insane" remark, you are definitely not insane, a little "out there" perhaps, now that I know you are from LA, your posts are self-explanatory. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 146 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 03:39 pm:    Jerome, Thank you for your understanding. I am praying for the improved health of your daughter. In the meantime, you must rest when you can. You can't help her if you are utterly exhausted. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1661 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 08:43 pm:    David, being diabetic, there is no way to work until I am utterly exhausted, my body won't let me, I sleep several times a day (studio is at home), when I am tired, longer than cat naps, but enough for me to recharge and start back again, perhaps not the healthiest routine, but it works for me and I've been following the same routine for over ten years. My Cardiologist of 25 years approves, of course he would like me to lose 25 lbs...but that is another story. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 147 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 09:36 am:    Well, whatever works. I think Buckminster Fuller and Thomas Edison, among others, had a similar sleep regimen.