CarbonCure

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 618 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2015 - 09:54 am:    Anyone heard of this? used it? Supposedly, it does not add any cost to CMU. From the manufacturer "CarbonCure works with existing concrete manufacturers to recycle carbon dioxide into concrete.. CarbonCure’s technology introduces waste carbon dioxide into the concrete production process, where the CO2 is chemically converted into a mineral within the concrete (i.e. the CO2 is mineralized). CarbonCure has many producer partners who provide products made with CarbonCure’s technology. Products made with the CarbonCure technology by Oldcastle are branded CO2NVERT products." Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2015 - 10:33 am:    I had some discussions with the company about 8 years ago during its start-up period. They seemed like they had done their homework. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 284 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2015 - 10:59 am:    Robin, I had a recent discussion with CarbonCure. They are working with Jandris in Massachusetts. It looks like a really interesting product technology. I think they've done their homework. Cost: It does increase cost, about 5 cents each CMU block, but manufacturers may be willing to provide better pricing to get it out there. Performance: They claim there is no difference in performance. CarbonCure has done lots of testing, but only 2 years of installation history to prove this. Where does the CO2 come from? For Jandris, CO2 is shipped from Virginia, which seems weird, right? Still, it's an interesting technology, I think worth considering. - Scott Piper Senior Member Username: spiper Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2014 Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2015 - 11:15 am:    I have heard of this but I have not seen anything that discusses the product durability. I assume it would be unaffected but I haven't seen anything to support this. What is interesting is there are more and more clients who are environmentally motivated who would be willing to use such products and even pay extra for them if need be. Meanwhile the landscaping budget gets slashed on most projects when planting a couple of trees would probably do more to capture carbon than the CMU. Of course doing both would be good. Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 79 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 07:30 am:    It's not at all "weird" that "CO2 is shipped from Virginia." We have a lot of hot CO2 in Virginia... some of it comes from across the Potomac River! James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 181 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 09:23 am:    In a psychology class I had in college the professor told us "jargon was the most deadly of the inert gasses." :-) It would seem CO2 from across the Potomac is dangerous as well. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 33 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 09:29 am:    I have met with representatives from Carbon Cure and Jandris (a concrete masonry manufacturer) and agree with those who say these companies appear to have done their homework. The reason for sequestering carbon dioxide in concrete is that the production of concrete raw materials releases a great deal of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, so this process is trying to reverse that effect. Ideally, the carbon dioxide would come directly from the concrete production, but logistics do not favor that at this time. The carbon dioxide that is shipped from Virginia is captured from combustion processes that would otherwise be spewing the gas into the atmosphere, so that is good. My main concern is to make sure that the process does not lower the pH of the concrete, thus enhancing corrosion on steel reinforcing or other steel that may be in contact with the concrete. Carbon Cure has been testing for this and it looks promising. My impression is that the present technology of injecting carbon dioxide into concrete blocks is a pilot effort under controlled conditions. Hopefully this method of carbon sequestering will eventually be possible with precast concrete and cast-in-place concrete. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 285 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 09:31 am:    While I like to make fun of politicians as much as anyone, really, it's one of my favorite sports. I was thinking, by applying common sense and logic, but not scientific method, about the energy expended in transporting CO2 to New England, just to embed it in concrete masonry units. - anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 12:44 pm:    Does anyone have any idea exactly how much carbon is sequestered using this product/technology? Don't see anything jumping out at me on the website. I understand that every cubic foot of concrete produced puts approximately one pound of CO2 into the atmosphere. How much does this technology reduce that amount? And, to other posters' points, how much CO2 goes into getting this CO2 to the ready mix plant? In production, transportation, etc.? If the final CO2 reduction is insignificant, i would be unlikely to promote it unless there were other significant performance attributes realized. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 01:35 pm:    From what I recall, the Carboncure process provides production and cost benefits to the cmu producer; that is why they use it. The reduction to the co2 is a warm and fuzzy marketing benefit, but not the prime driver. My recommendation - specify the cmu that has the best performance and appearance attributes for the job and leave the curing process as part of manufacturer's means and methods. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Scott Biggar (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, November 05, 2015 - 04:46 pm:    If I may, I can weigh in on a few of your questions. Full disclosure: I work for CarbonCure Technologies, and had the chance to meet both Greta and Lisa when I was in Boston last. For starters, I think a proper FAQ on our website is in need, and I'll be looking to get that up next week. Regarding how much CO2 goes in per block, and the matter of durability/strength, I think one of our most recently published papers gives comprehensive answers--look to the 'Conclusions' section for the abridged test results, and environmental impacts on p.8: http://carboncure.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Monkman-and-MacDonald-NAMC-2015-block-final.pdf Regarding pH and steel reinforcement, Dr. Monkman wrote a short technical note differentiating atmospheric carbonation from mineralization in fresh concrete (that also addresses pH): http://carboncure.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/CarbonCure-Technical-Note-CarbonCure-and-pore-solution-pH.pdf Regarding gas transport--we are at the mercy of the gas supply industry when it comes to supply location. However, even travelling from Virginia to MA by rail, then by truck to Jandris' plant doesn't negate CarbonCure's use on a block. The penalty is a gram or two of CO2, and right now that's the farthest that gas is travelling for any of our producers. As legislation on carbon capture becomes more common for industrial operations, I'm hoping to start closing the geographic loop a bit more. In the meantime, regional waste sourcing will have to do. Regarding price--Lisa is correct in that our producers decide on pricing, but are often flexible. Grey block is a commodity market, so pricing is competitive and different in every region. The added cents on a block that a producer will charge is often to help cover the cost of CO2 supply and the licensing fees for our technology. For block producers, their decision to install CarbonCure is based on marketing appeal, but also altruism. Our partners believe that this is how concrete should be made, and choose to start adopting it as a best practice. Impacts may be small on a per-block level, but scaling to project size starts bringing sequestration levels into metric tonnes (and remember, this is a concrete block we're talking about--seemingly an outlier when it comes to carbon capture and storage until now). Research on our end continues--we will be commercializing the ready mixed application of our technology very soon in the Northeastern US. Commercial testing on the eastern seaboard is looking quite positive, with our partners showing early strength increases. Our goal is for a 5-10% reduction in carbon emissions per customer, based on concrete mix optimization and CO2 reuse. So far, this goal is looking to be achievable. Expect announcements of new manufacturing partners soon. I'm always partial to a phone call to answer questions, but can do so here as well. My email is hyperlinked to my post-name. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 34 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Friday, November 06, 2015 - 08:34 am:    Thanks, Scott, for giving us the details from the source! Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 286 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, November 06, 2015 - 08:50 am:    I informed Scott about this discussion thread because I wanted to share a source contact with people who are interested in more technical information about CarbonCure. Hope everyone finds this helpful. - Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, November 06, 2015 - 01:45 pm:    Scott - Portland cement concrete carbonizes over time by absorbing co2 from atmosphere. When you promote c02 reduction, are you stating reduction at time of production or net reduction compared to concrete that carbonizes naturally? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Scott Biggar (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 - 10:27 am:    Michael - my apologies for the delayed response, I was at Greenbuild in DC last week. Atmospheric carbonation is different than active carbonation in fresh concrete. The claimed CO2 reduction that our manufacturers state applies to active carbonation, as that is what we measure when we commission a new plant. Atmospheric carbonation, from our understanding, is very difficult to measure. The levels of CO2 which finished concrete can absorb vary by exposure, and often only impact the outer 5mm of a block (kind of like a crust). When we commission a plant, we take control samples of their standard block, as well as samples from their CarbonCure block. Using the thermogravimetric analyzer that we have at our lab, we can determine the amount of calcium carbonate that resulted from adding CO2 during mixing (usually in the area of 15-18 grams per block). If you're curious about the TGA machine, the wiki article gives good detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogravimetric_analysis We're well past the pilot stage for masonry now--a detailed map of manufacturers can be found here: http://carboncure.com/producers/ Also the FAQ for the website is nearing completion--expect it by the end of the week (I hope)!