TNEMEC AEROGEL PRODUCTS

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1487 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 11:26 pm:    Has anyone specified Tnemec's Thermal Break Coating - Aerolon Acrylic, sounds interesting and Tnemec's products are top notch. I am curious if this product can be applied to the underside of a concrete slab to prevent condensation from an exterior deck above. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:19 am:    I wrote about aerogels in the July 2007 issue of Construction Specifier: http://www.kenilworth.com/publications/cs/de/200707/index.html page 20. They are an impressive insulation. I have no experience with the Tnemec product but see no reason not to accept their results. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1488 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:22 am:    Michael, have you ever specified aerogels or had it used in one of your projects? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1489 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:27 am:    Michael, I've tried to open your file link, no luck, tried several solutions, nada, can you email a PDF of the article? lazarcitec@msn.com Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 280 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 08:17 am:    We've been specifying Tnemec Aerolon coatings and seen the installations. It's a compelling product; I've been to some amazing presentations about it; and I want to buy stock. - Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 181 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 09:24 am:    I have spec'd Aerolon, applied to exposed structural steel penetrating an exterior wall. Because it seemed like a solution that would be useful for other projects, I added provisions in my office master. I do seem to recall from Tnemec's website that the system can be applied to multiple materials -- perhaps including concrete. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 11:51 am:    Jerome: A pdf of my article on aerogels can be downloaded at http://tinyurl.com/qefsqcg. I have handled aerogels and products containing aerogels, but no longer work on building projects. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 11:51 am:    My two takeaways from learning about Tnemec's Aerolon coating: 1) This is not a thermal break. The steel, concrete, or whatever it is applied to, is still conducting heat at the same rate through the exterior wall, roof, or floor assembly. You're best bet is to prevent thermal bridging by installing a thermal break (something that reduces thermal conductivity through the thermal management layer of the assembly). 2) If you cannot achieve a thermal break, the coating will reduce the possibility of condensation because the surface temperature of the element that is allowing thermal transfer will be insulated by the coating. Getting the thickness and extent of the coating right will require analysis for indoor and outdoor temperature and humidity levels. Jerome, I'm not sure what the concrete slab/deck assembly is that you are looking to use this on. If you have the room, I think your best option would be to insulate above the concrete slab on the exterior with insulation under the deck. This would isolate the deck completely. This is assuming you have pedestals, pavers, room for insulated assembly, etc. If for some reason you can't achieve that, perhaps the coating will work. Tnemec's product data for it recommends a primer for application to concrete. You would then need to figure out, depending on indoor and outdoor temp and humidity, if you can get enough of the coating to insulate the deck to a point that will prevent condensation. You will probably also need to look at extending the coating to the walls at the corners of the ceiling/slab because those will still be thermal bridges. You might very well prevent condensation at the deck surface, only to find you've moved the problem to the corners because you still haven't prevented the thermal bridging in the first place. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1490 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:08 pm:    Guest: Its typical in S.FL. construction for there to be minimal space for insulating the top slab of a residential building, esp when that slab is also a deck, in many past projects a product like Supertherm was used in that instance to achieve an R-19 rating with minimal reduction in headroom. The jury is still out on how effective Supertherm has been. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:55 pm:    Sounds like typical S.FL. construction has some flaws if you're having condensation issues. I could potentially offer some advice, but without knowing what the typical S.FL. assembly you're working with is, it wouldn't have much applicability except in theory. What is the slab/deck construction? Where is the vapor retarder? Where is the air barrier? Where is the insulation; how thick, what type, R-value? What is the indoor air temp and humidity? what is the outdoor temp and humidity? You're question is much more complex than you think it is. I would recommend finding someone with the proper knowledge to help you and your client figure it out the right way to solve your condensation issue. You would be better served by consulting with a building scientist with experience in S.FL. climates instead of soliciting free advice on the forum. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1491 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 01:10 pm:    Guest, my original query was regarding the use of the Tnemec Thermal Break Coating, somehow we are now talking about condensation issues, not my intent. I am not working on any projects right now with a condensation issue, of course that could change. I was curious if Tnemec's coating had flexibility to be used on other surfaces. And yes there are a lot of problems with S FL construction, my biggest gripe being that specifications are not included in the contract docs for 80% of the high rise work under construction, I've discussed that in other threads, still no change, specs are considered taboo these days, esp in condominium documentation. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 01:29 pm:    My reading skills must need some work then if condensation issues on the underside of a concrete slab/deck was not your original intent: "I am curious if this product can be applied to the underside of a concrete slab to prevent condensation from an exterior deck above." A simple review of the Aerolon product webpage and data sheet is all that is needed to see that this can be applied to concrete in response to your original question. Perhaps the simplicity of that answer is why I jumped the gun and started answering the question of 'should it be applied' rather than 'can it be applied.' My apologies. https://www.tnemec.com/product/view/Series-971-AerolonAcrylic Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1492 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 01:58 pm:    I jumped the gun too, I receive several requests a month from clients looking for ways to insulate these concrete slabs w/o taking away precious ceiling space, most of the time we are looking at post tensioned concrete slabs with a sprayed finish ceiling, sometimes there is a budget for gypsum board finish, than insulation/condensation is less of a problem. Supertherm proved to be a solution, but lately interest in using this ceramic insulating coating has died, no one is talking as to why, and I don't have the time to research what happened. A failure perhaps, it just seems to be a taboo material now. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1493 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:08 pm:    Only for clarification Supertherm is a Ceramic Insulating Coating: Single component coating composed of high-performance aliphatic urethanes, elastomeric acrylics, and resin additives in a waterborne formula which incorporates heat reflecting, refracting, and dissipating properties based on proprietary mineral and polymer technology, developed by NASA that may be rolled on a surface and has a Class A Fire Rating, 16 mils thick wet, 10 mils dry, is paintable, and required no special training to apply. It was however very expensive. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 05:16 pm:    The Tnemec product called Aerolon is a coating that contains Aerogel. By itself, Aerogel has tremendous insulating capabilities, but when mixed in with a coating and applied at thicknesses typical of coatings the R-value is limited. Tnemec literature that I have on hand indicates thermal resistance of R-0.5 for a 1/8 inch thickness. The promise of this coating, however, is in possible applications where even a small R-value could change the thermal profile of a detail that involves metal penetrating a layer of thermal insulation. Tnemec has engaged Morrison Hirschfield to perform thermal analyses of a range of possible applications, and I recommend that you contact your local Tnemec technical representative to learn more about how it may be best used. Brett Scarfino (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 05:01 pm:    Perhaps useful to your research.....Dow Corning dropped off a new product sample last week; "Insulating Blanket". They described it as fiberglass impregnated with aerogel. About R-10 in less than 0.5 inch. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 511 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 06:14 pm:    We have used a similar product described as an un-faced flexible blanket insulation composed of silica aerogel with reinforcing fibers made by Aspen Aerogel or Cabot, and a separate product intended for high temperature applications by the same manufacturers. These came in peel-and-stick and un-faced options in rolls about 5-feet wide. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1352 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 07:06 pm:    Regarding the Dow Corning Insulating Blanket, their website indicates a R-9.8 per inch. But even with that, this product is indicated to be fire-resistant and hydrophobic, which sounds like a good candidate to substitute for foam plastic insulation in a continuous insulation condition: * No NFPA 285 testing * Thinner material (with an R-9.8 at 1 inch, it will comply with all of the c.i. requirements of the energy code) Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Jonathan Miller, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: jmma_specs Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2009 Posted on Friday, October 09, 2015 - 10:24 pm:    I am considering using 0.7 to 4.0 mm dia. silica aerogel particles to fill the 1 inch airspace of 14 inch deep stone masonry historically registered building... the only space allowed in the exterior wall to be renovated with insulation. As it's hydrophobic, not flammable, will have about an R50+ insulation value... and at $10/kg from the Boston area this is an optimum solution... but I do not know aerogel has's ever been used before as masonry pour insulation. Does anyone know if it's been used as masonry pour insulation ? And I believe that any perlite/vermiculite subcontractor should be able to install this. Any thoughts ? Thanks ! Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, October 09, 2015 - 10:31 pm:    WHOA! The ultra lightweight particles of aerogel do not flow as you might expect. It took years to figure out how to reliably fill an insulating glass or cellular plastic sheet with them. Check with the aerogel manufacturers. Or else, WOE!!! Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jonathan Miller, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: jmma_specs Post Number: 26 Registered: 04-2009 Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:28 pm:    Thanks Michael ! We're exploring a possibility and will be contacting them. Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 76 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 07:37 am:    If applying for a historic restoration tax it, first verify that that solution is acceptable to the State Preservation Officer or authority having jurisdiction. If a method or material is considered detrimental to the historic assembly, the possibility for tax credit might be permanently lost. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 01:23 pm:    Too bad we don't have 50 years of field experience as a basis for evaluation. Your analysis must not be a 1 dimensional evaluation of thermal resistance. Consider all the factors that could affect a building, and discuss the risks of using a new product with your client. Go get you started: Give thought about how the aerogel will be recovered when the building is demolished or whatever. Will you be able to vacuum or drain it out of the cavity after years of exposure to minerals that may leach out of masonry, contaminants, and settlement/vibration? While the hydrophobic quality of the material should keep it dry, how will vapor play on it? Be clear about the long term exposure of any metal or other materials used for anchorage. When someone is modifying the building in the years to come,and knock-out a brick, will the aerogel above the breach drain out un-controllably? Share with us your findings. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 77 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 07:16 am:    2 posts above: "tax it" should read "tax credit." Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 30 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 08:43 am:    Back to the original question: If anyone would like to learn more about Tnemec Aerolon, they are now offering an on-line course regarding its use to reduce thermal bridging in the building enclosure. Just go to www.tnemec.com and click on Tnemec University to find out how you can learn more about this and earn Continuing Education Credits.