| Author |
Message |
Priscilla Lee
Advanced Member
Username: pjlee
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2019
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 03:22 pm: |    |
Do you know if CSI has an official format for citing standards and guidelines in the Reference Standards Article? I have not been able to find the official information I can leverage.
I read a great article by Ron Geren in "Specifying for Code Compliance" (https://specsandcodes.typepad.com/keynotes/2012/10/specifying-for-code-compliance.html) and started editing using Option 1 only to have everything crossed out by engineers.
One engineer wanted a generic introductory sentence and then add the references without dates.
"The referenced standards are to be the latest editions adopted at the project bid date."
ACI 117 - Specification for Tolerances for Concrete Construction and Materials; American Concrete Institute...
There are other specifications with links to sites where you can purchase books. I think we should refrain from adding links.
If you can give me pointers, that would be great. The websites I've looked at seem to all talk about bibliography and footnote citations.
Thank you so much! |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 537
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 07:35 pm: | |
"The referenced standards are to be the latest editions adopted at the project bid date."
This could be a problem when the standard has been adopted by the standards writing authority but not adopted by the code or AHJ.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Marc Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 601
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 08:21 pm: | |
Michael, you are right on....that kind of blanket BS bites me in the butt every time. Right now my building code is IBC 2018 with WA and Seattle amendments, In it are standards that were incorporated when it was written ....let's say 2016-17 so yeah...those all encompassing statements make us look stupid and lazy. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 538
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 09:16 pm: | |
Marc, Is the answer, then, to specify the version date for each standard used?
Related question: When the version specified is 2018, for example, should we reject manufacturer test data submittals that used a different version?
---------
If I understand quantum physics (which I don't), there is no absolute certainty. Ergo, buildings work because, probabilisticly, enough of the desireable stuff happens to make things work, kind of.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 937
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 09:29 pm: | |
If the manufacture has provided information compatible with the applicable version of the standard I do not see why you would care about the version referenced. |
Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 12, 2020 - 11:42 am: | |
When I review plans & specs I recommend that the A/E say to use the version of the standard referenced by the code noted on the drawings, or the latest edition if the standard isn't referenced by the code. |
Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 2091
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 12, 2020 - 12:06 pm: | |
Paul, Agreed same in FLORIDA |
John Bunzick
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 12, 2020 - 12:31 pm: | |
Let's get a little practical - I know that's hard for specifiers. The problem with out-of-sync codes and referenced standards has existed since there have been codes and standards. I remember an instance a few years back where the latest code referenced a standard withdrawn 20 years ago with no replacement. Given the number of references to standards in the codes compared to the number of times it mattered, I'd say this is a problem that sort of doesn't exist. Remember that, most often, revised standards are nearly identical to the ones they've replaced, with limited practical effect on the project.
If the designer needs to verify every specified standard, and compare it to every such code reference, and then see which standard the manufacturer used, then... well you get the idea. So, referencing the latest version of a standard is not a bad approach.
Speaking of manufacturers, for the ideal scenario to work (that is, uniformity between references and codes and specs) they have to always be testing to the most recent standard, too. We know how that goes. In most cases, it does not matter. In some cases, though, this really does matter. Something like testing a window to AAMA standards is quite expensive, and some older versions of AAMA are quite different from newer ones.
Let's talk about this again in ten years and see if there's any change in the status quo. Anyone want to place a wager? |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 327
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 - 10:11 am: | |
Well put, John! |
|
4specs.com Home Page