BSD Custom Color Language - Opinion n...

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Author Message Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 184 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 09:39 am:    Does anyone have issues with how BSD states custom color? "Color: As selected by Architect from manufacturer's custom range." There is the thought in my office that this somehow doesn't communicate the same thing as "Custom color" The bigger question of if we should really be saying either version is another issue. Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Senior Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 09:52 am:    Masterspec usually has this range of wording: [As selected by Architect from manufacturer's full range of colors] usually only allows for a limited selection in an effort to save cost. [Match Architect's sample]allows for the true custom color selection by architect. Depending on the product, it costs nothing extra, or a lot more. Gail Goldstead Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 93 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:07 am:    The BSD language seems to be an oxymoron - if it is part of a manufacturer's range of colors, then it is not custom. Like Gail, I like the MasterSpec language, but for custom colors I often augment it in one of the following ways, to highlight the fact that this will be a custom color and recognize that the Architect may not always have a sample: Custom color as required to match Architect's sample. Custom color as selected by Architect from full range of RAL colors. Custom color as required to match <curtain wall framing> [insert item] Custom color as required to match Owner's campus standard. Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 185 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:08 am:    Just to add a bit more info for those not familiar with BSD, the typical options include As selected by Architect from manufacturer's ______ range. Standard Full Custom Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 292 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:29 am:    The BSD standard language does seem inadequate. There is a distinct difference between a mfr's "custom" range and a custom color to match something specific. I also augment MasterSpec's language to clarify the intent under various conditions -- similar to Greta's examples, but without "as required" which seems unnecessary to me. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 186 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:45 am:    So Jeffery I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what you see as the distinct difference? Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 293 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 11:21 am:    The mfr's "custom" range is usually limited to specific colors. There might be a lot of options, but there wouldn't necessarily be a color the designer wants to match something else. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1798 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 11:42 am:    "Standard" = $ "Custom" = $$$ or more I usually write, "Color: As selected by Architect for manufacturer's standard color line." I rarely use "custom" unless I give it a reference. "Color: Custom color to match (manufacturer color)." Just writing "custom" is meaningless without a reference. How custom is custom? Some colors are hideously expensive while other nonstandard colors are only a little more expensive or no up-charge if large quantities of the products are ordered. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Holding an Intervention (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 12:39 pm:    If designers and architects would spend as much time worrying about the colors as much as we worry about specifying the colors ... this wouldn't be an issue as they would simply have colors selected. Personally, I've tired of trying to help them out by writing some language so they can point to it in a defense if the contractor wants to charge more because they couldn't select a color in a timely manner. I'm of the opinion it is better to delete the subparagraph dealing with color altogether if they don't have specifics; "when in doubt, leave it out." As David points out, "custom" is meaningless without more information, and often designers rely too heavily on it as a crutch rather than figuring out what is available and fits within the budget. Next time the designer tells you to indicate a custom color, ask if the manufacturer is able to provide custom colors, if there is a charge for it, or if there is a minimum quantity required for it, etc. If they can't answer those questions, they are just being lazy and I don't think we should enable it. --End of rant-- Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 666 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 01:22 pm:    Indeed. Leaving building colors for a moment, the on-line "build your own" function for the Porsche 911 at the Porsche USA website offers the following: Solid White, Black, Red, Yellow = 0 upcharge Metallic, with several options = +$720 Four "special" solid colors = +3150.00 "Custom Color" = +$11,430 Back to Buildings: If the designer has not, or will not pick an actual color, I note to "Match the Architect's sample(s)". Several designers I work with now list colors by the color management system they use for their rendering programs, so I am becoming used to receiving lists of Pantone or RGB colors. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1799 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 01:29 pm:    A specifier that I know always uses the following in his specifications: "Color: Black." That way if the designer does not choose the color, he chooses it for them. I am not sure that I subscribe to his Henry Ford approach but it is funny. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Holding an Intervention (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 05:24 pm:    In the event the designer has not, or will not pick a color, noting to match the Architect's sample is misleading. It communicates to the contractor that the architect has thought this through and has clear direction, including a sample they can reference when the opposite is true. There is nothing wrong with deleting the subparagraph or text intended to describe the color if no color has been chosen. It is the most straightforward way to communicate that there is no information to communicate. Why do we feel the need to fill in the blank with language that means nothing? If you feel like you have to indicate something, you'd be better off with one of the following: "Color: Submit RFI requesting this information from Architect." "Color: Coordinate with Architect through Sample submittals." David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1800 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 11:32 am:    In order to get accurate bids, the specifications need to mention something or at least give a clue as to the price range of the color. Sometimes color does not make a difference other times color makes a huge difference (like the Porsche example above). David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 485 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 12:09 pm:    How about this? An example of non-custom color wording where there are not (or not known to be) color groups at different price points: A. Color and Finish: As selected by Architect from manufacturer's available colors and finishes. An example of non-custom color wording where there are color groups at different price points (which varies by the type of material): B. PVDF Color and Finish: As selected by Architect from manufacturer's complete selection of non-metallic colors. An example of truly custom color wording, use only if directed by designer to do so (may be $$$$$): C. Color and Finish: As directed by Architect including custom RAL, RGB, or Pantone colors[, and custom sheen][, to match Architects sample{if a sample is known to have been selected}]. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 301 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 01:19 pm:    This is a perennial conundrum. If the relationship between the contractor and owner is solid, one sometimes can get away with this. But, in a public bid situation, this almost never works to everyone's satisfaction. We all know that coating type, color, and number of coats can be significant cost factors. The owner needs to know that and it needs to be accounted for in the estimate of probable cost. To me, not specifying the colors just means that design is not complete and it leaves open the possibility of a change request and possibly a delay in the project schedule. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1801 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 02:43 pm:    David, I agree. If colors aren't specified then the design is not complete. It's just another way of delaying decision making. That said, I used to work for an architectural firm that always selected colors during the submittal process. I guess the idea was that Manufacturer A's red would be different than Manufactuer B's red. I was always extremely puzzled by this approach. There is enough problems during CA as to not warrant extra burden of the architect or designer in choosing colors. Plus, I always wondered what color boards the interior designer showed the client when they were selling the design. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 486 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 12:02 am:    When I see the designers have picked the colors and they're on the finish legend, I reference that. Very seldom do they ask me to put the colors in the specs, but that has happened! Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 499 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 12:31 am:    When I write guide specs for manufactures, I often write several options for a specifier to use. For example: - Color: ________ - Color: See schedule. - Color: Match [existing] [sample at _______] - Color: Selected from manufacturer's [basic] [designer] [premium] color groups. Allow for use of [1] [2] [3] [______] colors.* *Using a single color throughout a project can be more affordable than allowing more. Indicating the number of colors to allow takes risk out of bidding. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1457 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 08:31 pm:    I regularly give a color formula for our Kynar coatings, or after approval of multiple samples, will have wording like "to match PPG Industries color code BN8P1508 "Light Copper" from the "Sunstorm" product line. We almost always refer to the final color selection using the coating manufacturer's designation number. Otherwise, I do call for "custom color" to match Architect's sample -- for everything -- to make sure there are enough budget dollars to allow for that. We've been caught a couple of times because I've had owners select a polyurethane color as the color they want for their silicone sealants -- and that's an upcharge.