| Author |
Message |
Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: edueppen
Post Number: 49
Registered: 08-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 09:22 am: |    |
We recently received a statement from a healthcare client that they will need to test all of their buildings for asbestos, including the building we just designed for them, unless they can document that the building is asbestos free.
They would like a statement from us such as "All project specifications include asbestos-free building materials”.
My first assumption was that we covered this in Division 01. We use Avitru Masterspec as the core of our specifications. But I performed a search and asbestos is not mentioned.
As a side note, asbestos prohibition is included in several Division 07 firestopping and fireproofing specifications.
My next assumption was that this must be covered by AIA A201, prohibiting the contractor from using asbestos-containing materials. But again, I found no mention of asbestos in A201 except related to existing materials and abatement.
The questions I have for my esteemed colleagues:
- Does federal law preclude the use of manufacture and/or selling of asbestos-containing materials?
- Are you including umbrella prohibitions against asbestos-containing materials in your Division 01 requirements?
- Does anyone know what are the legally-permissible amounts of asbestos in building materials?
Thank you in advance! |
James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: jsandoz
Post Number: 243
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 09:51 am: | |
Be very careful as the A/E issuing a statement that all building materials are "x" free. You will be taking on huge liability making a blanket statement like that on your company letterhead. A better idea is to get certification from each manufacturer and pass that through. Yeah, that is a lot of work but it is the manufacturer who knows what goes into his products not the architect or engineer. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 10:23 am: | |
I agree with James. Don't certify anything since you have no way of knowing. I'm wondering if we're going to have to require lead/chromate/cadmium/asbestos/etc. free certifications for every product used on projects now.
The sad fact is that we have no idea what is in many materials we specify. For example there are still legally allowable levels of lead in many paint products that are certified as "lead-free"; they are really "lead-compliant". It's a bit like pretending that "GMO-free" foods don't contain Round-up. Apparently a new study found Round-up in most children's cereals including those claiming to be GMO-free.
See https://www.maacenter.org/blog/5-types-of-products-that-still-contain-asbestos/.
There was recently an article stating that asbestos is still being used in some vinyl flooring products though I didn't check its validity. Until I can find it, this is what the EPA has to say about products that are still being manufactured legally with some ACM - https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/us-federal-bans-asbestos#notbanned
Also read https://www.asbestos.com/products/general/vinyl-products/ |
Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap
Senior Member
Username: lgoodrob
Post Number: 352
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 11:11 am: | |
Edward,
This is an excellent and timely question!
Short Answer: I agree with James and Ken. If you were pursuing Living Building Challenge, then you could "pass-through" your research to the Owner. But the A/E professional can't possibly be certain that no subcontractor ever installed some asbestos, somewhere.
In the US, we are (mostly) protected from asbestos by manufacturer's fear of litigation, not by laws or regulations. Following Ken's links will provide you with great information about asbestos and building products.
The latest update from our EPA is a proposed significant new use rule (SNUR) for certain uses of asbestos. If this rule passes, it may be easier to add asbestos into our building products. https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/federal-register-notice-proposed-snur-asbestos I can't imagine who is excited about adding new asbestos, except maybe Russian mining companies. The AIA has written a letter to Andrew Wheeler about this, which you can find online. I encourage you to learn more about the EPA's actions and share the information with your colleagues.
- |
Guest (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 11:42 am: | |
Lisa, I'm confused by your statement that the EPA's proposed SNUR is going to make it easier to add asbestos into our building products. Isn't it exactly the opposite?
According to the link you provided, the SNUR is an attempt to require review of any significant new uses of asbestos allowing the EPA to regulate its use, which as you point out is largely unregulated currently (rather it is controlled by fear of litigation). The rule would "require manufacturers and importers to receive EPA approval before starting or resuming manufacturing, and importing or processing of asbestos. [...] In the absence of this proposed rule, the importing or processing of asbestos (including as part of an article) for the significant new uses proposed in this rule may begin at any time, without prior notice to EPA." (https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/federal-register-notice-proposed-snur-asbestos). The intent is not to make it easier to add asbestos into our building products, but to make it harder. Or at least to require a case-by-case review of any proposed use by the EPA ... something that is currently not required. |
Ronald L. Geren, FCSI Lifetime Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 12:05 pm: | |
Ed:
You ask good questions for which I have no answers without taking some time doing research (time which I don't have at the present). But I do want to address the situation.
The advice offered about certifying something for which you do not have absolute knowledge is good. My question is, why go to the effort to collect, organize, and submit all the data to make a statement or to give to the owner for them to make a determination? That will cost the firm time and money for which the firm will not be compensated (you can give them a proposal, though).
My response would be to not make any kind of statement and let them test--it's their money.
Ron Geren, FCSI Lifetime Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP
|
Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: edueppen
Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 06:16 pm: | |
Thank you everyone for the advice and background on asbestos. I always find this forum so educational!
But I will try to clarify my concerns. I assumed that contemporary building materials were generally free of asbestos and that other specifiers were somehow prohibiting the use of asbestos-containing materials through Div. 01.
Is anyone prohibiting the use of asbestos-containing materials throughout the entire project? If so, how?
If not, then why?
Ron - since they are a repeat client, we would like to accommodate them as much as possible. But it is very troubling to try to satisfy a request that was never part of our original contract. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 08:15 pm: | |
Your suggestion to state, "All project specifications include asbestos-free building materials,” may be on the right track. They are interested in you following best practices, not in certifying the building.
Perhaps it will meet their concerns if:
1. you insert language in the Owner-Architect contract that you will not knowingly specify products with asbestos.
2. you have a statement in Div 01 prohibiting asbestos.
Consider delivering a presentation to them about asbestos. Discuss the background of the controversy, regulations, types of materials that may still contain asbestos, testing methods, your in-office training asbestos staff-training program, and other content demonstrating that your firm understands the the client's concern and is doing what is appropriate within the scope of architectural practice to protect client.
Also, get a quote from a asbestos expert for supplementary services to review spec, be available to review submittals, and test building for asbestos in the air. Have the expert at the table with you when you make the presentation.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 263
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 08:51 am: | |
Great advice from all. I especially like Michael Chusid's suggestion to take an educational approach to the topic. It would strengthen the architect's position as a leader without extending liability - IF it is done correctly. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 880
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 01:45 pm: | |
The following is boilerplate from my Section 011000.
2.1 HAZARDOUS MATERIALS
A. Owner requires, under terms of this Contract, that all products and materials proposed for use have been thoroughly investigated by Contractor, to ensure that products and materials containing asbestos and lead will not under any circumstances be furnished, used, or installed.
B. Contractor, by executing this Contract, accepts responsibility for prohibiting materials or products containing asbestos from being used on this Project.
C. Should Contractor furnish, use, or install any products or materials containing asbestos and lead, knowingly or otherwise, Owner will consider that Contractor has not met requirements of this Contract.
From 079200:
A. Architectural Sealants:
1. Toxicity/IEQ:
a. Comply with applicable regulations regarding toxic and hazardous materials, and as specified. Sealants must meet or exceed requirements of Bay Area Resources Board, reg. 8, rule 51.
b. Sealants containing aromatic solvents, fibrous talc, formaldehyde, halogenated solvents, mercury, lead, cadmium, chromium and their compounds, are not permitted. |
Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA
Senior Member
Username: don_harris
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 01:51 pm: | |
Government rules and regs can be complicated and misleading. Doing a project at a zoo years ago, the zoo wanted us to use a spray foam insulation that was formaldehyde free. There were lots of products that SAID they were formaldehyde free, but the catch was that there was a government reg that said you can call something formaldehyde free, if the amount of formaldehyde in it doesn't exceed "x" amount. The zoo wanted absolutely no formaldehyde. We found a product for that, but I caution you to understand the meaning of asbestos free as used in the various industries. I agree with all of the above in not certifying anything that you do not have complete knowledge of. Saying that a product is "asbestos free" may not mean it is so. Certification letters from an officer of the company would be the least I would accept, if not full testing. |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 655
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 02:21 pm: | |
Many years ago we had a healthcare client who made a similar request regarding asbestos to the one Edward is fielding. It was somewhat odd, because this client was dismissive of LEED and any sustainable design endeavors we suggested, but they had this thing about asbestos.
The details are long gone, but we approached the issue by saying asbestos was a naturally occurring material, and as such, infinitely tiny amounts of asbestos could be found everywhere, including in specification writers. We also noted that the major source of asbestos at their project would be found from the brake pads of the cars that the employees and patients drove to and parked at the finished building, and that we, the Architects had no control over that.
That being said, we promised not to specify any product with added asbestos. |
James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: jsandoz
Post Number: 244
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 02:58 pm: | |
As my motor-head colleagues will recognize there is a manufacturer of automotive brake parts called Raybestos. Yes, back in the day automobile brake shoes contained generous amounts of the naturally occurring mineral. The company still goes by the same name today but their products have been asbestos "free" for many years. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 416
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 06:24 pm: | |
There is a big difference between airborne asbestos (and products that could release asbestos due to wear) and asbestos that is an ingredient in a component that will never be exposed or subject to erosion... until demolition.
Adding to my comments about educating the customer, consider offering what you learn by speaking at industry conferences and writing for publications. It is a great way to build your reputation and that of your firm's. Call me if you want tips.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
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