Seismic Requirements in So Florida

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1823 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 08:16 am:    Another one of my crazy questions. I have a client who's client wants my specs to include seismic requirements. The project is in Dade County, FL. I have never specified seismic requirements for any part of So Florida, as it is not required. My question is can anyone lead me to a list of spec sections that would have references to seismic concerns. Doing so adds unnecessary cost to typ So Florida construction, so I refrain from adding the language anywhere. Adding these references to my specs may be an additional service, at least I hope so. Brian Payne, AIA Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 115 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 08:32 am:    Depends really. Adding requirements that “X” must be designed to meet Zone A or B seismic design, shouldn’t add any significant cost because there probably isn’t any requirements that your wind design isn’t already covering. Not till Zone C does it really start affecting anything, and even then, not so much. Zone D and higher is where it really is. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 1003 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 11:10 am:    You might advise your client that the requirements for seismic design in your seismic zone are nil (as Brian notes above) and should not add costs to construction; however; Contractors will look at these references, and if they are local, not really understand that it has no impact, and add cost for SIDU (stuff I don't understand-- similar to SICS for stuff I can't see). A requirement stated that should not have any cost impact will probablly result in a significant cost impact. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 12:23 pm:    Ceiling suspension systems should comply with ASTM E580 Installation of Ceiling Suspension Systems for Acoustical Tile and Lay-in Panels in Areas Subject to Earthquake Ground Motions. It will require, among other things, special perimeter angles or hardware devices to keep tees from sliding off perimeter. Since contractors in your area may not be familiar with it, you may want to call out specific requirements and not just reference the standard. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1824 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 01:58 pm:    Michael South FL Contractors barely read the specs, and when it comes to standards they ignore those entirely. The specs I write for So Florida work are geared toward this mentality, which unfortunately is now the norm. Some of you would be appalled by my specs, but they work, job after job, and 50% of my work is still based on the 16 div format which you all may consider archaic, but in order to include specs in contract docs on many projects that is the only format acceptable. I wish all my clients would accept MF16, but they don't. There are so many buildings being built in So FL without specs, incl the late Zaha Sadid's Exoskeleton Tower, it makes me wonder why the Florida Architects allow this. Its very sad how much Contractors control construction documents in So FL. It has not changed in 10 years, only getting worse. And now with the shortage of skilled labor its getting downright scary. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1825 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 02:10 pm:    My apologies for preaching, its been a tough week. I appreciate Brian and Michael's input. I have been promised a job writing specs for a resort on St Lucia, which may have seismic requirements. Until I actually get the job, I am holding off the research. Meanwhile the amount of crazy clients in S, FL keeps growing, as the work does not seem to stop. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 830 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 05:06 am:    The hard part is to talk with the project structural engineer. The SE should be able answer your question and can help the Architect explain to his client what is or is not required. While I expect the provisions to be minimal if not non-existent in south Florida it is not the role for a specification consultant to usurp the role of one of the architect's sub consultants. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 708 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 10:50 am:    expansion joints, stairs, ceiling systems, veneer systems, elevators/escalators, curtainwall, skylights. But, including the NOA for the exterior components should cover the client for any seismic requirements, which, as you know, are nil. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 616 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 12:21 pm:    I live and work in earthquake city, San Francisco, and Brian and Mark are both correct. Have the SEOR define the earthquake hazard zone the project is in. That will determine if the actual requirements are Nil, or not so Nil. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, NCARB Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1826 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 12:49 pm:    Mark, Steve, oh if it was only that easy, the Structural PE has not been signed to contract yet, or at least they won't tell me who it is. I played this game two years ago with same client, who finally advised who the Structural PE was a few days before the project was due, also on 11/22/17. I was never told why. Turns out the Structural PE had not prepared specs for So FL in over 10 year and ironically I worked on the same project. Their specs were immense...perhaps that is why the project was never built, too bad I did a really good job. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 617 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 01:14 pm:    I am not the project SEOR, but all of Florida seems to be in the 0 Seismic Zone: http://www.co.ontario.ny.us/DocumentCenter/View/3445 So Brian's assumption that your Hurricane requirements would supersede any Seismic requirements is correct. That is, unless the developer wants to impose some voluntary Seismic requirements. If so, they would need to provide the program. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 831 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 03:30 pm:    Strictly speaking we no longer have Seismic Zones. Rather things are defined in terms of Seismic Design Categories. Something is rotten when the name of the SE is a secret. I would expect that the specification writer would have a copy of the latest drawings in order to determine what is required. The structural drawings should tell you who the structural engineer is. I find it interesting that an engineer who attempts to produce thorough specifications for his work is accused of killing the job.