Insulation and Hollow Metal Door Frames

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message Jeffrey Potter New member Username: jpotter Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2017 Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 11:02 am:    Is packing in insulation behind hollow metal frames a common practice? From my understanding it is not. However, the AIA specifies mineral wool to be packed inside the hollow metal frame during installation, as well as the spec for the company I work for. Does anyone know the reason why or why not insulation is packed behind hollow metal frames? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 952 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 11:36 am:    I checked both the SDI and HMDMA specifications current on their web sites just now (both dated 2014) and neither makes any mention of stuffing the frame with insulation. However, I know many major facilities desire this, and I have watched various facade consultants freak when it's not included. But whether it is done or not is probably inconsequential. The theory is that it is a void and a loss of energy. However, there is no thermal break in the metal frame, and as we know from window fabrication of aluminum window, storefront, window wall, and curtain wall systems the thermal break is what delivers, and they also are not packed with insulation. It would be interesting to see true performance tests on a hand stuffed frame and one with no insulation in an installed application, including various hardware applications. Sure the lock or exit device may be in the door, but the frame has hinges and the strike box for the lock - to say nothing about the use of open back strikes for exit devices in many institutional applications. Anyone have any actual test comparison data references? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Senior Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 11:50 am:    This conversation came up on this blog once before: http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/7869/5927.html?1329261159 One of the posters posted this link: http://www.doorcomponents.com/pdf/HMMA_TechDoc/HMMA820_TN01_03.pdf It's indicated in Part 3 of Masterspec SECTION 081113 - HOLLOW METAL DOORS AND FRAMES. I've worked on jobs where facility managers highly prefer it over grout. Gail Goldstead J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 942 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:12 pm:    MasterSpec calls for frames in metal stud partitions to have insulation that is solidly packed. I believe that this is more for sound control (so the frames won't rattle) than thermal performance. The grouting is more for structural performance and should be limited to masonry and concrete construction. There is at least one manufacturer of a thermally-broken HM frame. You might get some enhanced performance from putting insulating in the frames although there really isn't that much space between the frame and the rough opening. If you are going that far, you should specify thermally broken thresholds as well. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 369 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 03:48 pm:    My understanding is that like Peter says it is mainly for sound control, and I would add that it is for gypsum and steel-framed partitions in lieu of grouting, in case any problems could arise due to moisture from the grout. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 954 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 01:22 am:    Thoughts from the experts: SDI: http://bit.ly/2l2auxu HMMA: http://bit.ly/2lbeYm8 Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Senior Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 09:44 am:    One of the links above, HMMA: http://bit.ly/2lbeYm8 is not working, but the SDI link answers the question. Thanks Sheldon Gail Goldstead Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 49 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:02 am:    If the insulation is used for thermal performance, note that steel is far less conductive than aluminum, so the added insulation may have an effect. But it would be great to have actual performance analysis of the insulated HM profile using THERM. If the insulation is used for acoustical performance, note that grout has significant mass and would best absorb sound at certain frequencies, whereas the insulation would have far less mass but would be effective at other frequencies - it is not an exact substitution. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 955 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:11 am:    Go to HMMA for that and several other standards and technotes. www.naamm.org/hmma William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 953 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:40 am:    Gail Actually the link to HMMA works just fine, it may be browser dependent if you don't get there. It is bringing up a pdf file directly from the HMMA site. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1057 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 01:07 pm:    I asked an acoustical engineer that I trust. His reply: "The assumption with acoustically-rated doors and windows is that the frames do not compromise the overall noise reduction effectiveness of the assembly. If the frames don’t provide enough sound insulation to preserve the rating, stuffing the frame with mineral wool insulation would help some but typical fiberglass batt insulation doesn’t do much to stop sound transmission. In any case, the frames need to be matched to the doors and windows and must be designed for sound insulation by themselves for any high-STC partition to be effective." Basically if you're not talking about a sound rated partition and a sound rated door and frame assembly (with sounds seals, etc.) there is no benefit at all from stuffing the frames with batt. I can't imagine any reason to use rigid. As to the grout, this goes way back to the 70's when the USG Gypsum Handbook had a vague recommendation to grout frames with plaster grout. Most people took this to mean that the anchors were grouted with gypsum mud to decrease sound transmission. If I recall correctly, MasterSpec had a line in the gyp board spec for this, noting it as an option but questioning whether it should be used. I think that disappeared back in the 90's. Bottom line, don't grout frames in gyp board partitions. If you care about sound, specify a sound-rated door/frame assembly. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 580 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 02:41 pm:    A few years back I provided specifications for a project in San Diego for Architects in Vancouver, British Columbia. On the building exterior, they wanted to fill all voids with self-expanding foam insulation. This included all voids window and curtain wall aluminum framing and yes, hollow metal door frames. They said this was for thermal insulation and was a typical detail they used in British Columbia. Can anyone in Canada comment on this? In any case, somewhere between no one in San Diego County wanting to bid on this, and the moderate San Diego climate with only 6 inches of rain per year (versus the Pacific Northwet Rain Forrest), the entire idea was quietly dropped. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 943 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 02:41 pm:    I have always though that the batt insulation stuffing was simply to reduce the possibly of "rattle" in the installation; never though it was to reduce sound transmission. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 956 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 04:15 pm:    Many, many years ago, the specs I inherited required frames in gypboard partitions to be grouted, perhaps because of the USG reference cited by Ken. Our CA people said no one ever did it anyway. That eventually went away and was replaced by a requirement to "spot grout" at anchors, the intent being to eliminate rattles, as Peter suggests. More recently, we have been requiring sprayed foam for the same purpose. Does anyone know if rattles are a valid concern? As for thermal properties, when you have a piece of metal exposed both interior and exterior, the only thing a little insulation might do is reduce air movement through the frame. A frame that isn't thermally broken is a well-designed heat sink. Brett Scarfino (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 03:44 pm:    thermally speaking, insulating around the perimeters or other voids/hollows: 1) swaps radiation and convective heat transfer across the air space for conductive heat transfer through the bulk insulation. In my experience modeling aluminum framed glazing systems, there are only marginal improvements when insulation is included. Some special situations where it might offer greater improvements. 2) isolates the metal frame from cold adjacent construction (I'm thinking brick here). Depending on the layout and whats next to the frame, this can be a large improvement from both an energy loss and condensation risk standpoint. Note: NFRC U-factors won't capture this interaction with adjacent construction. For an HMD, two things going for - steel is a poor conductor of heat relative to aluminum (approx. 3 times lower for steel, 10 times lower for stainless steel), and HMD frame likely has thinner walls than alum. mulls (so, are you on a 2 lane rd. with pot holes, or on a 12 lane freshly paved version of the autobahn?). Brian Payne, AIA Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 71 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 08:44 am:    SDI does not recommend grouting frames except for security purposes, even in masonry. Accelerates corrosion of the frame.