Window Sill Edge

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Author Message Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 104 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 04:30 pm:    I was given the following for a Solid Surface Window Sill. Thickness 1/2" Edge: Provide 1-1/2" tensile drop edge. Any one here know what a tensile drop edge is? I am wondering if someone was confused Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 197 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 04:41 pm:    I never heard of this either, but a search located a Formica document that discusses them: https://www.formica.com/us/~/media/north-america/documents/products/en/formica-solid-surfacing/fss_handling_tb_02_14_10_en.pdf They are apparently meant to offset the tensile forces in a long solid-surface countertop. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 105 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 04:49 pm:    Thanks Jeff, My google search offered nothing . Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 795 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 04:50 pm:    Nothing more than the 1-1/2 inch deep finished exposed edges forming smooth, uniform [bullnose] [square] [beveled] [ogee] [inlay] [____] profile. And as Jeffery W. wrote above. Good term. I will spring on the interior designers. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 935 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 05:06 pm:    Sill or stool? J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 923 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 05:20 pm:    Stool is a piece of trim and may be wood, solid surface, quartz, or stone. Sill is a window frame component. A stool may be omitted while a sill may not be omitted. J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 936 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 09:50 pm:    A continual source of discussion with architects, many of whom don't know the difference. I suppose it's possible, but I don't think I'd specify solid surface material or plam for a sill. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 106 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 10:40 am:    Must be a regional thing. Nobody uses the term stool in our region. anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 12:47 pm:    we use the term in our region. but not in any architectural context ;) Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 244 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 08:27 am:    Thanks Peter, as soon as I saw the post, it was the first thing I thought of - Dean: It's not regional, but it is one of my pet-peeves. A sill is on the exterior of the window. A stool is on the inside. It is misused more than any other construction term I can think of. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 937 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 07:44 pm:    I don't think it's regional. We use stool and sill correctly, but it's a battle. I use the above illustration, or one that's more architectural (drawn with straight lines), to show which is which. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 125 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 08:44 pm:    MasterSpec uses the term "stool" in reference to stone window stools, but I have never seen the term used anywhere else in Masterspec, not even in the woodwork specs or window specs. I never see the term used on drawings. I think it's just one of those words the industry hasn't come to a consensus on yet; so a lot of architects are not familiar with it. It can't be too much of a problem, since I never hear about stools and sills being installed on the wrong side of the window. One bit of advise, though. Be careful about requesting stool samples. You might not get what you were aiming for. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 157 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 09:09 am:    Richard, That is an astute observation on samples. The next time an architect requests a stool sample, I will do my best to pooh-pooh the idea. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 11:11 am:    Do a google search for tile window sills and tile window stools. Look at the images, they are the same. My point is that the terms are used interchangeably. The AWI Handbook lists window sills being made from " Solid-Surface, Natural/Manufactured Stone, Epoxy Resin, Solid Phenolic. If you guys want to call the stools, go ahead. If I call them sills, the contractors, installers and suppliers will know exactly what I am talking about. If I called them stools, they would wonder what rock I crawled out from under. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2100 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 11:15 am:    Don't forget "stool" can also refer to the 3-legged sort. Your sample might be a surprise, but "are you sitting down" could be an appropriate question. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 108 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 12:19 pm:    My grandfather had a crude one legged stool that he used to milk cows by hand in a bye gone era. Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 199 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 12:40 pm:    This discussion piqued my curiosity, since I have also often argued for calling the interior component a "stool." Despite some mixed definitions from online dictionaries, no less an authority than Tom Silva in a This Old House article about trimming windows defines the interior wood ledge as a stool. Anyone care to dispute that, or shall we rest our case? Dewayne's point is taken though. In practice, the terms are largely interchangeable. Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 938 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 03:12 pm:    We should always use defined terms correctly, but it isn't always easy. For a similar discussion about another product, see Tegularity. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 03:39 pm:    Sheldon - Now that I know "reveal" will work, I will never use "tegular" again. I am glad your blog raises questions about the definition of ceiling tile vs panel. I have been plagued for years by ASTM's tile/panel definitions. Yet "board" does not work for all products either. For example, I am doing work for a company that makes thermoformed ceiling products that are made from thermoplastic just 0.013 inch thick. I end up using "ceiling unit" or "ceiling element", but they are not satisfactory either because the grid is also composed of units and elements. And while we are on the topic, there is no agreed upon definition of "acoustic ceiling". The term probably originated with matted fiber products. But the above mentioned thermoplastic units have great noise reduction characteristics when used in a suspended ceiling. Does that make them an acoustic ceiling tile or panel or board? I welcome feedback. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 238 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 03:53 pm:    It is easy to remember the difference between sill and stool. You can sit on a stool. Not too many people cling to the exterior of a building to sit on the narrow ledges typical of window sills. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 668 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 04:13 pm:    It's more important that the terms used on the drawings and in the specifications are consistent, than if they're noted as "sill" or "stool". Keep in mind, that if someone has problems with tegularity, they also likely will have problems with stools. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2101 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 04:13 pm:    Perhaps, as champions of "building knowledge", we should be educating our colleagues and co-workers as to proper terminology? It's always a good thing when we all use words with a complete understanding of their meaning. It definitely would help forestall misunderstanding. It's fine to play around with word meanings, but maybe we should be using and teaching the right meaning. Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 200 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 04:25 pm:    Dave, that has got to be the best specifier joke of all time. Thanks for the laugh! Jeffrey Wilson CCS CSI SCIP Wilson Consulting Inc Ardmore PA Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 939 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 05:39 pm:    Lynn, I'm sure you and most specifiers have taken advantage of the many "learning moments" presented in the course of a project to explain a variety of things, which, unfortunately, are considered of no value in school. Going the other direction, specifiers can no doubt learn much about the interrelationships of multi-planar brutalism and disruptive defenestration from any new graduate. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1430 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 06:58 pm:    Sheldon, you had to look those up, didn't you? Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com jp (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 10:17 am:    There are "terms of art" deeply embedded in each building craft (and other crafts as well). These are not well known outside the craft. As the craft evolves into an industry with less involvement of the master craftsman, some of these terms are lost. A master woodworker in a shop making custom wood windows will be very familiar with these terms while the person on the assembly line in a wood window manufacturing plant will probably not. It is interesting to "wander" through the glossary of any "manual: (TCNA or AWS are good examples) and see how many terms are unfamiliar. Architects used to be more connected to the crafts and, as a result, be more familiar with even the more obscure terms of art. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 940 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 04:31 pm:    Not the individual terms, Ron, but if such a thing as multi-planar brutalism exists, I don't know what it is. As for defenestration, I'm certain it's always disruptive. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 669 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 05:16 pm:    Defenestration definitely is disruptive. It is the act of throwing someone or something out of a window. The term was coined for one incident: the "Defenestration of Prague," May 21, 1618, when two Catholic deputies to the Bohemian national assembly and a secretary were tossed out the window (into a moat) of the castle of Hradshin by Protestant radicals. It marked the start of the Thirty Years War. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 941 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:26 am:    Yep. I don't recall when I came across the term, but it seems like it should mean "removal of windows" rather than throwing something through them. Yet another confusion of terminology! Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 277 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 07:30 am:    I thought everyone had a list (short or otherwise) of candidates for defenestration.