| Author |
Message |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1485
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:31 pm: |    |
Why do toilet accessory manufacturers (Bobrick, Bradley, ASI, etc.) offer two different diameters of grab bars (1-1/2 inch and 1-1/4 inch)?
According to ADA grab bars can be anywhere from 1-1/4 inch to 2 inches.
I would assume that 1-1/4 inch diameter grab bars would be better suited for applications for small hands such as elementary schools, day care facilities and possibly elderly care.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Justatim
Senior Member
Username: justatim
Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 08:02 am: | |
I think this is a holdover from the original ADAAG, which DETAILED a 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" diameter, calling it "nominal." That dimension could only be accomplished with a nominal 1" pipe or tube. At that time, the Access Board didn't understand the difference between actual and nominal dimensions. I was one of several architects who met with the Board to explain it.
Local codes still may vary as to which accessibility standard or dimension they have adopted.
A 1-1/4" dimension allows a nominal 1" bar, and the 2" allows the nominal 1-1/2 inch bar (1.9" actual). |
Justatim
Senior Member
Username: justatim
Post Number: 88
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 08:08 am: | |
I just looked and The DOJ's 2010 ADA Standards now allow 2-1/4" maximum, which accommodates a nominal 2" bar. |
Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 11:20 am: | |
Tim, which 2010 ADA Standards are you looking at?
Section 609.2.1 indicates "an outside diameter of 1-1/4 inch (32 mm) minimum and 2 inches (51 mm) maximum."
The same language is used in ICC/ANSI A117.1-2009. I don't see where 2-1/4 inch maximum is allowed--nominal or otherwise.
Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 897
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 11:39 am: | |
The "nominal" dimension only applies to steel pipe where 1-1/4-inch Schedule 40 steel pipe has an outside diameter of 1.66 inches and 1-1/2-inch Schedule 40 steel pipe has an outside diameter of 1.9 inches. Increasing the diameter or the weight (to Schedule 80) will, of course, increase the outside diameter.
Other pipe and all tubing is sized by the actual outside diameter. Both 1-1/2-inch steel tube and 1-1/2-inch stainless steel tube have an outside diameter of 1-1/2 inches as does 1-1/2-inch aluminum.
Steel pipe is usually the least expensive option so I always try to have a discussion about terminology with my clients before developing the specifications.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
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David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:16 pm: | |
Department of Justice 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design is available here:
http://www.ada.gov/2010ADAstandards_index.htm
No mention (that I see) of 2-1/4 inch handrails allowed.
What is everyone's opinion on peened finish? I have never specified peened finish because I believe that smooth chrome is easier to clean and keep clean. Peened finish might increase grip in a shower compartments or other wet areas.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 545
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:45 pm: | |
I am curious. With the discussion of various pipe versus tube dimensions, are people specifying grab bars as custom metal fabrications? We usually specify manufacturered grab bars listing the major North American suppliers.
Regarding Finish: We usually specify the standard satin stainless steel finish.
Without adding an anti-microbial coating, Nylon or vinyl coated grab bars are the best for preventing the transmission of infection. Stainless steel under a microscope is amazingly rough. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 2082
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 02:18 pm: | |
I agree with Steven regarding the stainless steel finish being rough and not nearly as anti-microbial as previously believed. One of the alternatives, such as nylon, is much better.
Because I have long fingers, I prefer the larger diameter bar. But I completely understand wanting to use the smaller diameter in lower grade schools. I question it (although the difference is slight) in places where the users might have difficulty with a grip on a smaller diameter. |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 07:48 pm: | |
In my humble opinion, anti-microbial finishes for toilet room accessories is a waste of money and a public health hazard.
Anti-microbial treatments may reduce the vitality of bacteria in direct contact with the treated material, but have no impact on bacteria feasting throughout any fecal matter or other body fluids.
The folks that promote antimicrobials will show you lots of lab tests, but I have yet to see evidence that people using buildings with treated products are healthier.
Soap and water is the best defense against picking up microbes.
The public health hazard is that antimicrobials contribute to the development of antibiotic-resistant microbes.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 546
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 08:24 pm: | |
Michael,
We agree with you. On top of your comments is the need to recoat if you want to use an anti-microbial finish and the difficulty of knowing when this colorless & odorless material needs to be re-coated.
The other day we saw a demonstration of a lever type door lockset that dispenses anti-microbial jell each time you operate the lever. Maybe that is the answer, but constantly slimey bathroom door hardware doesn't seem very attractive to me. Contra-intuitive too. But I do not know. Maybe Allegion and Assa Abloy need to buy pharmaceutical companies now to stay competitive. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 918
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 01:12 am: | |
A couple of infection control directors I work with avoid anti-microbial products, and refuse to accept those that use coatings. The reasoning is interesting; if the cleaning staff knows the surfaces have anti-microbial properties they might become more lax, believing their work is no longer as critical.
As for coatings, they will eventually fail at some unpredictable time.
Regarding the original question, many years ago I specified one inch diameter grab bars for a day care center. |
Justatim
Senior Member
Username: justatim
Post Number: 89
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 07:25 am: | |
Ron,
Oops! Stet my comment on DOJ's 2010 ADA Standards. I was looking at Figure 505.7.2, which is for non-circular cross sections. |
Stephen Kelly Taylor
Intermediate Member
Username: steve_taylor
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2016
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 01:48 pm: | |
The 1 1/4 inch to 2 inch diameter code language is a result of some testing that was done years ago (I believe by John Templer at Georgia Tech) on handrails. As I recall they set up a stair that could be manipulated to intentionally trip people, then belayed the test subjects from above while they walked up and down it. They tested various sized rails, and found that 1 1/4" to 2" round rails worked best. Traditional handrail patterns did poorly in the test.
The code requires that handrails be within that range or have an equivalent grip, or words to that effect. Ironically, most of the rails developed to meet the code are worse than the traditional patterns. |
Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: louis_medcalf
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 01:04 pm: | |
Copper alloy grab bars and hardware have permanent anti-microbial action that will kill even MRSA. See www.antimicrobial.org. |
Dewayne Dean
Senior Member
Username: ddean
Post Number: 59
Registered: 02-2016
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 01:53 pm: | |
Louis, that link doesn't seem to be correct |
An (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 03:06 pm: | |
Louis might be trying to link to www.antimicrobialcopper.org.
I've heard various claims for the antimicrobial effectiveness of copper and copper alloys. Usually it comes down to the use and care of the product and whether or not users treat it differently because it is "antimicrobial." The website linked has a proper use and care document which is available here: http://www.antimicrobialcopper.org/us/proper-use-and-care
Direct link here: http://www.antimicrobialcopper.org/sites/default/files/orig/media/430791/am%20cu%20proper%20use%20and%20care%20v2014.2.pdf
Interesting reading for those inclined. Note the summary on page 2 of the PDF:
1. Antimicrobial Copper Alloys are a supplement to and not a substitute for standard infection control practices, and users must continue to follow all current infection control practices, including those practices related to cleaning and disinfection of environmental surfaces.
2. Antimicrobial Copper Alloy surfaces have been shown to reduce microbial contamination, but do not necessarily prevent cross contamination.
3. Regular cleaning should be conducted to remove dirt and grime that could prevent contact with the Copper Alloy surface and inhibit antibacterial performance.
4. Antimicrobial Copper Alloys must not be coated in any way. (the footnote here notes that tarnishing of the material does not impair the effectiveness of the material) |
Dewayne Dean
Senior Member
Username: ddean
Post Number: 60
Registered: 02-2016
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 03:23 pm: | |
Thanks An |
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