Client ? specifications that talk abo...

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1591 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 01:19 am:    I advised the client to refer to the drawings, esp ones that include ADA guidelines, but now I wonder if there is anywhere in the specs to include crossslopes of surfaces, of course I reference ADA throughout the specs, but I try to avoid specific requirements. What are my peers doing? Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2071 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:07 am:    To my thinking, once you reference a standard, that's sufficient. If you put the requirements in the specs, and for some reason (unknown to you), the standard changes, you'll have a conflict - or the possibility of one. The ADAAG is a recognized standard, like an ASTM or any of the other standards we use. I wouldn't put anything in the specs beyond the reference. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 626 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:12 am:    I agree with Lynn, but this also is a drawing issue more than a specification issue. Not only the percent of cross slope, but also the direction of cross slope needs to be indicated--and that needs to be shown on the drawings. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 987 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:18 am:    I agree that it's a drawing issue. I did have clients (local DOT and PW) that required that manhole covers meet slip resistance. They didn't care whether it was static or dynamic; just figured that as long as it was identified as meeting ADA and State accessibility requirements they were covered as having done their due diligence. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1592 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:33 am:    Lynn, I never have, but this client is very sharp, though young, and perhaps not as experienced, still I don't want to shoot him down, who knows his ideas may have merit, but it appears at least from the spec writing community, this sort of info should stay on the drawings. Thanks Ken & Dave. I have a cc with my client in a few minutes. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2072 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 10:21 am:    Don't "shoot him down", educate him as to what information belongs in the specs and what information belongs on the drawings. My colleagues are correct (once again), and this is a graphic issue, indicating what slope is where. Explain what standards are and why we use them. You couldn't lift a Project Manual if all the standards had to be included within and not just cited. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1593 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 10:36 am:    my cc went well, no worries, he understands. This client has no time for a tutorial today, but I have preached to him in the past. Lynn, if you search for some of my prior posts where I discuss why SFL is a difficult place to write specs you will see several posts that talk about one large project where the Mitigation Consultant and a room full of Attorneys argued that specs should include excerpts from the Standards in case a subcontractor had no access to the Standard. In one memorable meeting I was in conf room with 8 lawyers, the mitigation engineer (no longer in business), the owner, the architect, and 3 contractors, who were all telling me I was wrong, I was there by myself, with my laptop. I opened up the ASTM site that I subscribed to and told these guys, nothing is free, but the info is available. I left the 3 hour conference with a win, my specs stayed as they were. The hotel condo project got built, no litigation to date that I know of. I actually talked myself out of a big additional service, for double my original fee, but seriously I doubt ASTM would allow me to copy their standard into the specs, so it was a nightmare avoided. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2073 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 10:39 am:    Exactly. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1594 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 10:45 am:    Well, in SFL the current solution is not to include specs. Than there is no standards to consider. I just had a long conversation with a national manufacturer's Rep who could not understand the logic behind not including specs in projects. There is no logic. When someone on this board can tell me why an Architect would agree to issue drawings without specs for a million dollar project. In this case this rep assured me that in other parts of the U.S. this is not the norm. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1595 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 10:50 am:    From my conversation with a National Manuf Rep: "Unbelievable, I mention the no spec issue in south FL to other firms and they just don't get it." "So they think without specs the liability is removed from them and place on the owner or GC? I'm just trying to understand that logic." "Good to know, hard to believe firms don’t use specs and can stay in business. It seems if you don’t have specs then you don’t need contract documents….They go hand and hand from what I remember from my CDT study days.. I can't mention the rep's name because he is fearful this trend could end his job as an architectural rep. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1385 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:05 am:    Maybe this is why I've never been asked to write specifications for a project in southern Florida (I've done some code work down there, though). Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2074 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:06 am:    And, evidently, you wouldn't enjoy the experience. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1598 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:17 am:    Ron that is how I originally became friends with Ralph Liebing, he was working on a project in SFL and he needed answers to questions no one else would provide. I receive many questions from architects and spec writers about how to prepare specs in SFL, I'd write a book, but everyone would think I was writing fiction again. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1599 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:21 am:    Actually Lynn, enjoyment is relative, on that project I had several out of work spec writers who were ready to jump on my team, including several experts in WP, Glazing, and Stucco, but the potential aggravation was not worth it an besides one of my clients would have been the attorney, that kind of stress no one needs. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1600 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:23 am:    Ron, I receive many referrals, esp from spec writers in Florida who don't want to do work in SFL. Its truly amazing, in fact several of those spec writers have never heard of 4specs, they all do now. Thanks Colin. Michael J. King, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: mking Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:26 am:    In the initial post "I advise my client to refer to the Drawings," I would respond as follows: First, using phrases in specs such as "as indicated on the Drawings" is a trap for specifiers. First, if it is indicated on the Drawings, making this statement is unnecessary and redundant; if it is not, then this statement is incorrect and you have no means to enforce anything. Second, determine which part of the documents (drawings or specifications) are more efficient in communicating the requirements and let that document do its job. Requirements are enforceable if indicated on Drawings or included in Specifications; they don't have to be in both. Dewayne Dean Senior Member Username: ddean Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2016 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:32 am:    does "refer to drawings" have the same drawbacks? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1601 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:38 am:    Michael, that was literal, I told the client crosswalk design should be in the drawings. I agree with the use of the words "in the drawings" or "refer to the drawings", but I work with many firms, each wants their way, when I work on HUD or senior Living jobs, the Dominion won't allow use of those words, some of my clients insist their specs refer to the drawings. Its not always up to me. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1602 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:43 am:    Also Michael, in SFL Developers sometimes delete specs from the Contract Docs w/o telling the architect. I have at least a half dozen projects where specs were written and once the Construction Contract was signed, specs disappeared, by the way on all those projects, litigation ensued, w/o the ability to blame the specs. It amazes me that there are some architectural firms that don't ask for a copy of the Contract for Construction. Michael J. King, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: mking Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:59 am:    Dewayne: Yes, "refer to the drawings" has the same drawbacks. If you use this phrase in the specs and there is nothing on the Drawings about the subject to which you are referring, you have only gained the doubt in the contractor's minds about the quality of the documents in general. If the requirements are on the Drawings, adding this phrase in the Specs adds no more enforceability. Jerome, one cannot protect clients from themselves. If they insist on violating sound contract document organizational principles, they travel at their own risk. Just be sure you are not dragged along with them in court when the problem gets to that point. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1603 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 12:07 pm:    Michael I prepare coordinated specs, I review the arch drawings page by page (could be why I am up till 3 am) and advise the architect in writing of conflicts, of course this is not a fool proof approach, but its kept me out of litigation on 120 condo projects. If any spec writer references the drawings and has not coordinated the specs with the drawings, they deserve the aggravation they get. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1604 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 12:14 pm:    Of course my approach may be crazy, on a recent project the Owner retained Peer Consultants to review the documents, every Consultant got assigned a Peer Reviewer, accept for me. I received peer review comments on all specs but the architectural. I questioned the architect he finally admitted that my specs were never a problem, generating a few RFI's based on the Arch Specs on the previous job, the Owner insisted on minimal RFI's and didn't want to spend the $$$ on peer reviewing my work, I was kind of upset, I wanted the peer review, esp since one of the Peer reviewers was a fellow Architect. Bummer.