Archive through January 31, 2012

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Author Message Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 06:51 pm:    I've worked on a few projects lately where NOBODY is addressing the non-structural things under the footprint of the building and 5 feet out. (Such as compaction of earth under the building, engineered fill, perimeter foundation drain, etc.) My architect-clients aren't noticing this (until I point it out), and in some cases, the civil engineers have separate contracts with the owners. Civil isn't preparing spec sections unless I tell the architect they need to, and the architect has a contract with civil. I exclude civil sections from my scope. Today I asked my architect-client if we have a perimeter foundation drain (I thought I was asking a rhetorical question, since we have waterproofing and drainage board on basement walls in the architectural drawings.) The architect responded that that sounded like a good idea, and I responded that this is something that the geotech usually recommends and civil usually designs. (Geotech didn't do much recommending.) The architect asked civil, and the response that came back from civil was that he had assumed the STRUCTURAL ENGINEER was doing the design of the perimeter foundation drain. Am I the crazy person? What's going on here? Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 08:23 pm:    I fight this battle frequently, too. As the spec consultant on the team, I usually start from the assumption that I'll produce Earth Moving, Subdrainage & related sections but geotech, civil, structural & other interested parties will have to review for content. This is usually the best way to get the whole team on the same page & to organize their various concerns into specs that make sense & are coordinated. These consultants are frequently happy to have someone take charge of production, and prefer to review the spec rather than produce it. It doesn't always work out, but if I start with this approach as the default, a satisfactory outcome is more likely. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 534 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 10:43 pm:    You're not alone, Liz. I've been working with pretty much the same consultants for fifteen years, and many times, when we deal with foundation drains, you'd think we had never had to deal with them before. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 845 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 11:45 pm:    Up until about the year 2000 or so we never had a problem with this (earthwork/excavation and subsurface drainage). Up until then (from the mid-70's) the structural engineer always did this, including marking up the sections just like any other section. Then about that time, the same structural engineers started refusing to do this, the common response being, "we are not soils engineers". So, since this is typically not civil engineering work (they have never done soils work or foundations information or subsurface drainage) we started sending it off to the Owner's Geotechnical Engineer. Frequently it would never come back until we informed the Owner - and this was because the Owner never engaged the geotech to do anything other than the soils report. When the contractual requirements were sorted out, it came back just fine. However, there are times when this glitch still occurs. We actually had one project several years ago that never had an earthwork section or subsurface drainage section written for it. I think the geotech simply provided something separate - or who knows! But, these days: Earthwork (foundations and excavations): the structural wants to review what the geotech marks up, and geotech does mark it up just fine. Subsurface Drainage: Typically geotech marks up the section, but about 80% of the time structural shows it and about 20% of the time geotech is contracted by the Owner to do the drawings. There is still a 1% chance floating around out there where the structural engineer wants to do it all. We have one such engineer that works with our Dallas office that does this all the time. Other structural engineers in that area say no. In the DC area, we have again 1 out of several that will do it if geotech is not contracted correctly, and the remainder of the many we work with refuse. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 447 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 02:50 am:    As the prime design professional the architect cannot ignore the work below the foundation just because he does not have a contract with the civil or geotechnical engineers. Besides being professionally irresponsible it also creates a conflict with the code. 2012 IBC Section 202 "REGISTERED DESIGN PROFESSIONAL IN RESPONSIBLE CHARGE. A registered design professional engaged by the owner to review and coordinate certain aspects of the project, as determined by the building official, for compatibility with the design of the building or structure, including submittal documents prepared by others, deferred submittal documents and phased submittal documents." Refer also to IBC Section 107.3.4 The prime design consultant is expected to coordinate the different design team members. If the Owner’s consultants will not participate in the process the prime consultant needs to take the problem up with the owner’s representative. Structural engineers do not do design of perimeter foundation drain. A structural engineer may show the foundation drain on his drawings but in my experience these were not “designed”. To do it right you probably need input from the geotechnical engineer to advise on subsurface water, a civil engineer to advise on surface drainage, and a plumbing engineer to size the drain pipes. Getting geotechnical engineers to participate in preparing specifications can be like pulling teeth but sometimes some dentistry is needed. Most structural engineers are not good at preparing earthwork specifications. More critically most structural engineers do not want the liability exposure associated with geotechnical work. Unless you have specific training of a geotechnical or civil engineering nature I would recommend against producing grading and earthwork specifications. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 163 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 09:15 am:    I commonly see A/E firms trying not to share their fee by hiring additional consultants. These are the same Architects asking me to prepare cast-in-place concrete specifications - "it's just a small slab area." I remind them about my areas of professional expertise and their professional liability insurance. I try very hard not to write specifications for work results outside of architectural scope. One of our longtime A/E clients has an in-house civil engineer, who I occasionally help with his specifications. They no longer have an admin department, so it's mostly word processing, but I have learned so much from him - especially when to say no. - J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 09:55 am:    What I have seen in several locations is that the civil consultant is responsible for every thing from 5 feet outside the building footprint. This would, of course, exclude the work described above. I do routinely prepare earthwork specs (I probably should be trying to get the geotech to revew them). We do so very little work below grade (except for elevator pits) so the drainage is seldom a concern. The Plumbing engineer needs to be involved since this will probably go to the storm drain. Like William, I have seen over the last 10 to 12 years less willingness for civil engineers to deal with anything other than paving and grading. In our area, flooding and runnoff issues have created specialized people within the civil discipline who have strong tiels to the AHJ over flood control. Retaining walls are another particularly difficult issue with both civil and structural engineers reluctant to be involved on anything over about 3 feet. When I do read geotech reports, I have to keep in mind that they deal with the conditions that they find on the day or days they are conducting their investigations. Soil stabilization is a particular issue and recommendations for the same site will vary from lime stabilization through lime-cement stabilization to take out 8 feet of what is there and put in approved fill (recently for a single-story building of less than 10,000 sq. ft.--no basement). When the contractor is pushing dirt, the conditions will may be very different requiring a different approach. The local construction industry seems to adapt to this issue without difficulty, and I have never heard of this being a problem on a project in this area (more than 350 projects over the last 15 years). Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 448 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 01:19 pm:    Am surprised about the comment regarding reluctance to design retaining walls especially if a geotechnical engineer is involved. The issues are liability exposure and fee. The key liability concerns are addressed by retaining a geotechnical engineer who will make recommendations and visit the site during construction to verify conditions were consistent with the geotechnical investigation. My understanding is that civil engineers believe there insurance doesnt cover tall retaining walls thus their resistance. Structural engineers regularly do tall retaining walls but they often have excluded site retaining walls unless they have been accounted for it in their fee. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1358 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 03:58 pm:    Mark, I agree with you 100 percent. I do find it a bit of a relief that you see the best practice on your coast to be the same as I see it on mine. - The geotech recommends, but does not usually design anything. Recommendations include information to help the structural engineer figure out proper foundations, to help the architect design waterproofing (if needed), and to help the civil engineer design foundation drains. - The civil engineer designs foundation drains, though I have seen code officials insist that it was "plumber's work," but I don't want to get into that. Some civil engineers are perfectly capable and some are willing to design retaining walls. I've never seen a civil not willing to include backfill in their work--there's not really any other proper entity to take responsibility, IMHO. Yes, there is often a gap in these areas when consultants are spun off and hired by any old person. (Okay, I know that's really only the owner, but how often do we see them really taking the initiative in this scenario to really make sure all the design needs are fully covered?) Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 11:28 pm:    This discussion has been very helpful and reassuring for me. Thanks, everyone. Brian N. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 08:02 pm:    As a geotechnical engineer foundation drainage is a standard part of a thorough geotechnical report. The need for (or the lack there of) of foundation drainage should be reported in any geotechnical report. I have found that the civil engineer has overlooked it on occasion on the project drawings even when it is in the report. Mr. Jordan, groundwater conditions are typically reported from the time of the subsurface explorations. However, if the site has on-going environmental issues, the site owner may have groundwater level data for a longer period of time. Typically, I write that seasonally high groundwater levels are typically observed in the spring, just after snow melt (in the northeast), and the contractor is responsible for stabilizing subgrades.