Help with Natatorium

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1439 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 05:18 pm:    I am currently writing specifications for a gym facility that includes an indoor pool and water park. What advice can you give me for materials in the pool area? The steel doors inside the pool area, do they need to have a special coating or should they be stainless steel? Should the lockers in the locker room be plastic or plastic laminate instead of steel? Advice and lessons learned tips are appreciated. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 769 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 05:28 pm:    David, You are taking on way to much risk unless you are also the decison maker and AofR. Hire RDH or MH or Trinity/ERD. You are neither a building science expert nor a lawyer. Or are you on a fact finding mission. Anything I tell you is off the record. Chlorine pools will AGRESSIVELY attach ferous metals and 304 stainless. Yes, I have seen stainless steel door hardware grossly deteriorated. Bill Coady CSI, CCPR Senior Member Username: billcoady Post Number: 27 Registered: 06-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 05:38 pm:    David, I don't know anything about the metal questions but want to point out that a chlorine environment is tough on the seal of insulating glass units. Most, if not all, glass fabricators have an exclusion on the warranty of their IGU's unless very specific installation conditions are met. If you have exterior glazing in the natatorium we should talk....off line. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 877 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 06:40 pm:    I use FRP doors (not the aluminum ones with FRP face plates) for applications like this. They are 3 times more expensive than the steel doors, but they are designed to be used in industrial facilities with aggressively corrosive environments. I always recommend their use with doors adjacent to swimming pools or pool equipment rooms where pool chemicals may be used. My go to company is ChemPruf (located in South Texas), but the Special-Lite people were in with what may be a comparable product. These guys also make FRP frames. Avoid plastic laminate lockers; the particleboard substrate may be damaged by ambient moisture. I have used HDPE and phenolic in these applications. Incidentally, you may want to discuss concerns about moisture and clorine with the MEP. The mechanical system will have some special considerations which may mitigate some of your concerns in certain parts of the building. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 08:51 pm:    If you need a ceiling, look at my article on thermoformed ceilings in Construction Specifier, www.constructionspecifier.com/thermoformed-ceiling-panels-and-tiles/. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1444 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2015 - 08:08 pm:    Peter and Michael, Thanks for your help. I will look into these products. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Steve Gantner, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: sgantner Post Number: 43 Registered: 08-2007 Posted on Friday, December 04, 2015 - 11:52 am:    David, a few cautions for you. One is paint and sealant types to be used in that environment. It was touched on by Bill with insulating glass. Chlorine environments are particularly nasty to these items. I have found the key to the design of the natatorium really is the Mechanical Engineer and having one that really understands the environment and science behind it. One that does, will be able to inform you of the location of the dew point, vapor barrier location, and cautious of return air materials, in particular ductwork and grills. One final word of advice. If this is your first one, good start, asking here. Seek out your product reps and their technical support and document, document, document. Congratulations, you are now embarking on one of the most dangerous design types in the known universe. Have fun. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 235 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Friday, December 04, 2015 - 03:22 pm:    David The architect should find out exactly what chemical treatment is being used. Most resorts don't use the high chlorine content chemicals (although one small hotel I stayed at used so much that it destroyed every swimsuit my family wore in the pool). They are all corrosive, but it helps to know just how harsh it will be. Fiberglass doors are the best choice, especially for the chemical room. Some type of plastic locker is best. Good ventilation is important. Not all stainless steel is the same. http://www.bdcnetwork.com/diagnosing-and-solving-moisture-problems-natatoriums Pay very close attention to air & vapor barriers! Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 02:55 pm:    What standards apply to testing building products in chlorine atmospheres? Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Steve Gantner, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: sgantner Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2007 Posted on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 06:01 pm:    Michael, I haven't found anything specific to chlorine, however there are a few ASTM standards that do exist for testing chemical resistance of materials. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 12:57 pm:    Great comments. I hope the HVAC engineer understands the pool needs to be isolated from the rest of the building and under negative air pressure with respect to the rest of the building; you can help by treating the entire area with a defined interior air barrier. Steel framing, joints, deck, lintels all want to rust. Marine hardware required. Don't forget the vapor retarder at the roof assembly. Brett Scarfino (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 10:58 am:    You might also search for chemical resistance to chloramines. These are the intermediate Cl byproducts you can smell, therefore volatile/free to condense anywhere. I've seen several projects add UV Lamps and/or switch to a salt water systems to better manage chlorine and their accelerated corrosion issues. These are expensive after thoughts. I would raise the issue with pool designer so that the design minimizes volatile chlorine compounds in the first place. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 879 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 10:02 am:    Saltwater systems are not chlorine free. They do use salt (NaCl) to generate the chlorine to "sanitize" the water. You don't wind up with salt water, but water chlorinated by a different process. My perception is that this is not as corrosive, but you will still have issues. As indicated above, building envelopes must be carefully designed, and the MEP is your best friend. Your firm may wish to hire a swimming pool consultant who is familiar with many of these issues. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 431 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 10:05 pm:    Sorry for jumping in so late on this topic but Phil’s comment about vapor retarders in the roof brought back some memories. Having had natatorium, aquaculture, ecology, and similar high-moisture type projects in the past, I remember some of the lessons learned. The tread covered many of them; air quality, high-moisture, changes of air, non-corrosive ductwork, etc. But Phil’s comment about the vapor retarder in the roof rang up a very important point regarding moisture. In addition to the roof (depending on the type), do not forget the exterior walls. Glazed masonry and other such surfaces on the interior face will work, Portland cement plaster with a high-quality vapor retarding coating will also work nicely but GWB is out. I would strongly suggest a rainscreen type exterior cladding on the exterior side with ample open venting of any cavity, top and bottom, in addition to a quality air barrier. This includes brick veneer claddings. I recall some BIA horror pictures (thanks to Brian Trimble) of severe brick spalling in similar applications. IIRC, we specified special procedures in the pre-construction meeting requirements to assure this issue was clear to the various trades during construction. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp