Cold-Formed Metal Framing - Who Writes?

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Author Message Richard Fost AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: richardfost Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 11:53 am:    I've been wanting to ask everyone their opinions and practices related to cold-formed metal framing specifications. On a project with exterior walls with non-load bearing cold-formed metal framing - transferring lateral loads only - who writes the specification?? Do you (the specifier/architect) write it? Do you kick it over to the Project's structural engineer to write it? I don't have a problem preparing the section but I do retain delegated design requirements for design and detailing, similar to curtain wall framing. But I also know others that don't want to touch it and put it on the structural engineer's plate. How does your office approach this? Thanks. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 287 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 11:56 am:    Richard, Yes, that's how we handle it. Sometimes the Structural Engineer wants to do it, usually only when there's something other than standard non-load bearing walls involved. - Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 03:02 pm:    Sometimes the walls are so complex it justifies consulting a subject matter expert. See article I wrote for Construction Specifier, see page 16 of http://www.kenilworth.com/publications/cs/de/201502/index.html. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 517 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 04:05 pm:    For DIV 09 Non-Structural Metal (Interior) Framing, we the Architects provide the Section. For anything beyond the smallest TI project, the SEOR would review the Section. For DIV 05 Cold-formed Metal (Exterior) Framing, it is a toss up if the Arch or the SE provides the document, but we both review with greater attention to detail than the interior framing Section. We tend to work with a small list of structural engineers, so we are often sharing the same Section back and forth. DNA testing may be required to determine the actual parentage. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 961 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 06:29 pm:    Nice Steven. When we do the work in-house I usually have to arm-wrestle my engineers since we both want some ownership. They take the hard part; I handle delegated design language, metal protection, decisions about "alternative" studs and coatings and similar content. I also double check to make sure appropriate deflections are identified for various wall veneers (brick vs. metal or other panel products). Consultants tend to leave me with the entire Section unless it's an odd job with load-bearing conditions in which case it's all theirs. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 06:41 pm:    Ken, I believe the Architects think they are leaving the hard part (the math) to the Engineers, while the Engineers think they are leaving the hard part (all the mushy, subjective stuff) to the Architects. As long as everyone is happy. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 962 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 06:42 pm:    As long as they're willing to seal the Seals page when the time comes, I'm happy! Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 768 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 - 11:15 pm:    Who is responsible for the system that the cold formed metal framing is a part of? That is the individual who should author the specification section. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1429 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 12:37 pm:    Out here, in the upper left hand corner of the country, most specifiers write structural sections which includes Section 054000 Cold-Formed Metal Framing with review by the structural engineer. I don't mind writing the cold formed framing section or the other structural sections. Most of my Part 2 says, "Refer to Structural General Notes on Drawings" anyway. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Intermediate Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 02:18 pm:    ... "Most of my Part 2 says, "Refer to Structural General Notes on Drawings" anyway." ... How does a statement like this adhere to CSI specification writing principles? Seems like a cop out... Gail Goldstead anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 02:24 pm:    As another upper-left-hand-corner-of-the-country spec writer, i'm going to have to disagree with David. I do not prepare structural spec sections and i do not believe that "most" of us do either. If the structural engineer is drawing something, then they will be specifying what they draw - that is my rule. If it's holding the building up, then it's structural. If it's listed in AISC 303 2.1 Definition of Structural Steel then it's got to be designed and specified by the structural engineer. Cold-formed metal framing, 99% of the time, does not contain anything structural, and is instead a delegated design section that I typically prepare, without input from the structural engineer (not needed), for non-load-bearing exterior stud walls. wind load and deflection criteria are the only performance requirements for this. occasionally blast load criteria (fed bldgs). Richard Fost AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: richardfost Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 03:50 pm:    I agree with anon - and it appears that everyone is in agreement and are comfortable preparing a CFMF section for non-load-bearing framing (i.e. not holding the building up). And I'm thinking I should have included at the start that I'm referring to CFMF specifications that do not provide member sizes, gauges, etc. - relying on delegated design for final engineering, member sizing, detailing of connections, and determining loads/reactions imposed on the building's structural system. Here in the middle of the country, I've always worked with SEs that draw the structural steel but rely on the Architects to draw the non-load-bearing CFMF framing - the SEs will often help us out by running some simple calcs to confirm we haven't strayed too far off course. I also agree with David's comment regarding a review by the structural engineer. There are other sections we will draft, then forward those drafts to the structural consultant for their review and input/comments. CFMF should be in that mix. To Michael Chusid's comments, the structural engineer engaged by the CFMF contractor would be a Subject Matter Expert (SME). Hopefully the architects/BIM-jockeys bring a subject matter expert into their offices early, for input regarding fabrication/construction before the project is too far along. And I will do the same. Thanks. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1430 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 05:46 pm:    Gail, How is it a cop out? Would you rather I repeat information already in the structural notes on the structural drawings? "Say it once and in the right place." Items that are not in the Structural General Notes I do specify the material. Anon, I know most if not all the specifiers in Seattle/Bellevue/Tacoma and I have only run into a few that don't write the structural specs. I think some of the sections would be easy for the structural engineer to write (structural steel, steel decking, rough carpentry, etc.) but I think that others would be difficult because there are architectural components associated with it, for example concrete. The structural engineer is really only concerned with compressive strength. They don't care so much about the admixtures, finishing, curing, etc. aspects. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 769 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 10:03 pm:    I would be very careful in defining the structural engineer's scope based on AISC 303. There are many steel elements that are not structural steel but that you want the structural engineer designing. The reality is that your typical "structural steel" specification section is intended to apply to many steel elements that are not structural steel per the AISC definition. This is particularly likely in a building that is not all framed with steel elements. Read the definition carefully. To say that the structural engineer is only concerned about the compression strength of concrete suggest that you may not know enough about the topic to write the specification section. I agree that many structural engineers have dropped the ball with regards to structural specifications but having a specification writer who is not a SME do so is equally troublesome. In my experience when an architect writes a structural specification section it looks totally differently than when an engineer writes the section. In general the architect focuses on the visual aspects and the engineer the technical/strength aspects. Sometimes for concrete you will have a cast-in-place concrete section written by the engineer and a coordinated but separate concrete finishes section written by the architect. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 10:50 pm:    Richard Fost takes issue with my suggestion fold-formed steel subject matter experts, suggesting that, "the structural engineer engaged by the CFMF contractor would be a Subject Matter Expert (SME)". Richard is correct if the cold-formed steel uses conventional profiles and the structure is orthogonal. But add curves, complex geometry, non-standard profiles, and complex joinery, and we are discussing a whole different challenge. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Richard Fost AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: richardfost Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2015 - 08:07 am:    Michael - I agree entirely. I didn't mean to exclude anyone from the design/engineering/fabrication table and dialogue. Having fabricators involved early, that are familiar with advanced methods of fabrication, would be a tremendous aid in determining how what's on paper/screen can be built. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 36 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2015 - 10:50 am:    If you are looking for a wide survey, perhaps I can represent the upper right-hand corner of the USA by stating the following: Structural Engineer prepares specifications sections for cast-in-place concrete, steel framing and metal deck, with review by Architect for concrete finishes, concrete flatness & levelness, AESS and other architectural criteria. Architect/specifier prepares specifications sections for masonry, CFMF, metal fabrications, metal stairs and other assemblies that bear non-structural loads, including requirements for delegated design where needed, and asks for review by Structural Engineer for loading criteria and other structural considerations. That way each of us writes about what we know best and allows for review by the other for aspects of our sections that the other knows best. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1513 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2015 - 11:03 am:    Greta for Florida and perhaps the SE US, I would add Reinforced Masonry as a section prepared by the SE, also any structural precast, prestressed products. In regards to CFMF, I prefer the Structural Engineer prepares this section, not always the case though. Add Prefabricated Wood Trusses and Heavy Timber to Structural Engineer's burden as well. Let's not forget Concrete Piles which are sometimes prepared by the Geotech Engineer, but usually by SE. Soil Stabilization (Vibro-compaction) is sometimes prepared by SE and sometimes by the Geotech Engineer.