SSMA vs. SFIA?

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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1421 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 09:38 pm:    What is the difference between the Steel Stud Manufacturer's Association (SSMA) and the Steel Framing Industry Alliance (SFIA)? I used to specify that steel stud manufacturers must be a member of SSMA. Now, I am wondering I should drop that requirement or include SFIA membership. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 12:06 am:    I would not require manufacturers of metal studs be members of either organization. Rather specify the standards in the AISC standard. As I require SSMA took the leadership in defining standard notation for studs and in effect defining standard sizes that most manufacturers provide. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 02:53 am:    Correction I meant the AISI Standard Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 75 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 07:30 am:    So far as I know, they are competing groups of manufacturers. They both, as well as the Certified Steel Stud Association (CSSA), have code-compliance certification programs. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 934 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 08:54 am:    Agreed. I no longer specify manufacturers or their organizations. It's a commodity. Performance specify and be done with it. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 676 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 10:21 am:    I'v totally agree with Ken. I just finished doing some research on steel stud manufacturer's. As a result of my research, I've decided to make my steel stud spec a performance spec. One added comment: There is a lawsuit pending over the use of studs with equivalent coatings (EQ) or G40e. Clark-Dietrich is the manufacturer promoting the EQ coatings and is being sued by Cemco & Marino/Ware. The point is moot in Calif. for school construction as they (C-D) don't have an ICC ESR Report for the EQ coating, which is required by the Division of the State Architect (DSA). Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 597 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 10:35 am:    Let's not open that can of worms again. http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/24/6768.html#POST39142 Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 11:09 am:    Richard, Can you post some information regarding the suit? Any links to court records, etc.? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 677 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 12:03 pm:    Unfortunately, I don't have any additional information. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 935 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 01:57 pm:    Guest, as far as I know they're still in the discovery phase. Several people on this forum were apparently deposed though, to my knowledge, no one was approached as being an expert witness so the purpose of that exercise is unknown. You can probably contact either side and request an update. They seemed willing to discuss this last I checked. For those who did not know, the issue about the "equivalent" coating in that other thread only comes into play if you are allowing or specifying equivalent (dimpled) studs. As far as I know, all of the steel stud manufacturers still provide the standard thickness studs to meet specs that do not allow the use of EQ studs. Who knows, maybe Green Girt will come up with a stud solution for CFMF. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 12:59 pm:    Fair enough Richard. I hear plenty of people talk about this lawsuit or that lawsuit when it comes to different products and until I see the actual records, I tend to take whatever is said with a gigantic grain of salt. Especially when the lawsuits or talk of lawsuits are coming from a competitor. FWIW, I couldn't find anything substantial in a few quick google searches either. Looks like there have been a few suits being traded back and forth between these companies, but I wasn't clear that any of these are the suit you referenced. Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 04:28 pm:    The SSMA "Product Technical Guide" has been through the ICC Evaluation Service and is ESR 3064P, which means stud sizes and spacing for both CFMF and non-structural studs based on the tables in the book meet IBC 2009 and 2012. The book is a free PDF download. They also have some handy standard details. Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C New member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 05:17 pm:    Louis, Please post a hyperlink to this free pdf download. Thank you. Gail Goldstead James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 171 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:47 am:    Gail, welcome to the 4specs Forum. In which part of the country are you located? Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Junior Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:53 am:    Hello James and all, I work in Chicago: Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, LEED AP Senior Technical Architect + Specifications Writer Adrian Smith + Gordon Gill Architecture LLP 111 West Monroe Suite 2300 Chicago IL 60603 T 312 870 4202 Gail Goldstead ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 937 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:59 am:    This is the SSMA technical page: http://www.ssma.com/technical-library-pages-9.php Here are some useful items on Steel Framing Alliance website: http://www.steelframing.org/quicklinks.html Here is the technical page from CFSEI: http://www.cfsei.org/technical-publications The generic information that these organizations provide can be very useful. I suggest caution when relying on their more proprietary content, especially regarding restricting your specs to their member companies. Use of equivalent (dimpled) studs using higher ksi steel with thinner gage or related equivalent coatings should be the decision of the individual Specifier. Best of luck. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1439 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 12:51 am:    Ken, thanks for the links, very informative. Gail, welcome to the forum, say hello to my old (college) friend Jorge V Soler. Gail Ann J. Goldstead, AIA, CSI, CDT, LEED AP, BD+C Member Username: ggoldstead Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2015 Posted on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 08:45 am:    Jerome, Will do. Gail Goldstead Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 899 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - 02:36 pm:    There are several archived threads about metal framing, but I'll stay with an active discussion. ClarkDietrich Building Systems Awarded Record $49.5M in Product Disparagement Suit Against CSSA Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 535 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - 04:18 pm:    Hospitals in California also require an ICC ESR Report. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 780 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 11:49 am:    I do not understand the basis for the ruling since my understanding is that these alternate supposedly "equivalent" coatings are not listed in the IBC. Dietrich has been noted as being litigious. The metal stud market is apparently very competitive. OSHPD, the agency regulating hospitals in California, cannot require and ICC ESR report but what is done may differ from can. Anonymous (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 02:23 pm:    Mark, to an extent you are right, they are not directly listed in the IBC ... however, they are incorporated by reference. The IBC references AISI S220 for non-structural steel studs. (IBC 2015, 2211.1) AISI S220 A5.1 states, "Nonstructural members utilized in cold-formed steel framed construction shall have a protective coating conforming to ASTM A653/A653M G40 minimum or shall have a protective coating with an equivalent corrosion resistance." (https://www.steel.org/~/media/Files/SMDI/Construction/CFSD%20-%20Pub%20-%20S%20220-11%20-%20Standard%20for%20Nonstructural%20Mbrs%20Final.pdf?la=en) All ClarkDietrich needs is to show that their EQ coating provides an equivalent corrosion resistance, which they have done. Apparently the jury in Ohio agrees.