Specification Format - Lines Numbered?

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1352 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 10:33 pm:    I was sent a spec section where each line is numbered per page, no article numbers, just text. The spec is for a private sector job. I've not seen this on private work, seen it on public work, though I can't recall where? Perhaps one of my colleagues can explain this method of page format? Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 664 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 11:03 pm:    Seen it on way too many deposition records and litigation documents! Never heard of it being used on a project manual Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 11:15 pm:    I've used a project manual that someone else prepared like that. It was for a private school in Denver that I was doing CA on. It was a long time ago, though. Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 08:02 am:    This is a legal format. I used to use it before there was auto paragraph numbering, since it was an automatic feature. I still like it, especially when I have to page back or forth: when all paragraphs are at the same level for several pages, and I need the full location reference. It's also nice to pinpoint a word or phrase in a larger paragraph. The biggest problem was issuing revisions, since a small change could affect many pages as the text shifted location. Re-issuing full sections was not as commonplace as it is today. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 836 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 08:02 am:    It was more common 40 to 45 years ago. MasterSpec did not incorporate a numbering system to support hierarchy. Using page and line numbers was the only way to navigate through a section. I have occasionally seen this over the years, and line numbers can easily be turned on or off. Quite frankly, line numbers make more sense on legal briefs where block text is used and there is no hierarchical numbering. I would suggest that using both is redundant and could be confusing. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 226 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 08:32 am:    The State of Wisconsin uses line and page numbering. They have some of their own masters, especially for MEP. Because of that, it has been very common in WI for A&E firms to use it for their masters. You can check it out here: http://www.doa.state.wi.us/Divisions/Facilities-Development/Document-Library/Master-Specifications-Design-Guidelines On a side note, their page format is slightly different from Division to Division and sometimes, even with in a division. But that's okay, because they make the A/E fix those problems when they work on a project. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2022 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 04:51 pm:    Isn't Wisconsin fun? Working on those specs is something I definitely will NOT miss! J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 837 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 06:36 pm:    Aloha, Lynn. Enjoy your new status. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1357 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 06:44 pm:    That's right I almost forgot Lynn, isn't Friday the big day? I remembered because Friday is also National Doughnut Day...anon and all you googlers, look it up! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2023 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 07:29 pm:    Nope, Jerome, yesterday was the big day. I'll miss National Doughnut Day - and Flad does celebrate it as well as pi day! I'll be on my own this year, and every year after. Sigh. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1361 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 07:36 pm:    Lynn, how can you say that, YOU HAVE SO MANY FRIENDS ON THIS BOARD? And as far as National Doughnut Day, I am sure there is a Dunkin Donuts nearby, go in for a cup of Joe on Friday and get a free artery clogging glucose and gluten laden doughnut...I will be getting one too, to give to my daughter, I'll take a sliver to be hospitable. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2024 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 07:39 pm:    Jerome, yes, I know I have many friends - you guys have proven that over and over. I just meant I'd have to eat the doughnut (or pie) by myself. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1363 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 07:51 pm:    Well perhaps the regulars and even the irregulars (I mean u Nathan) can all purchase a coffee and get a free doughnut on Friday and set a time for a mass bite? All for one and one for all? Lynn, I've worked all alone for over 20 years now, I don't miss the comraderie, but I do work at home and having a psycho hippie addict for a daughter, so my days are never dull or lonely. RH (Hank) Sweers II RA CSI CCS Senior Member Username: rhsweers2 Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2015 - 10:56 am:    I prefer line-numbering on specs - and use it all the time. I believe it easier for the Architectural PM's to reference a location in a spec, such as: Page 4- line 20, rather than saying: 2.07/B/(3)/c for instance. It also works with my preference to get as much info on a page as feasible, to have less pages - and potential tree cutting for printing (or unnecessary data bits). With line numbers in the margin, I don't have indents and paragraph references within the text - leaving more room for the critical info. I still do use paragraph numbering when the client insists or prefers, but after they use line-numbering, they love it. I don't insist that Engineer's sections follow suite - hard enough to get them to use CSI 2004 MasterFormat numbering it seems . . . Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Monday, September 21, 2015 - 10:21 am:    I believe a lot would be lost without the outline format recommended in CSI SectionFormat and used by specifiers everywhere. The indentation and paragraph numbering IS information - it sets up a heirarchy of text that makes it possible to quickly find the information needed. Brevity is a laudable goal, but it is best achieved through the use of simple declarative sentences, brief phrases that are to the point, lists and references to standards where available - all presented using appropriate formatting. Navigating a section comprising homogeneous prose text with line numbers would be far more time-consuming than navigation of that same information in a section where the text is organized per SectionFormat, even if it the formatting results in additional pages. Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 273 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, September 21, 2015 - 11:11 am:    In addition to what Greta has said, with digital technology, it is often difficult to keep page line numbers consistent with the text. This is only possible if you are all using the same hardcopy editions of the Spec. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 948 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, September 21, 2015 - 01:19 pm:    Not a fan of line numbered text though I have seen it used with SectionFormat. It's one thing to be able to find something when someone else tells you where to look, but anyone having to read a spec to submit a bid will go nuts with no white spaces. Readability is as important content; I don't find line numbered specs to be as Clear as properly formatted specs. I'm all for saving paper (or bits), but the document still has to be reader-friendly. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1647 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, September 21, 2015 - 03:03 pm:    MasterWorks software, supplied with MasterSpec, allows you to do line-numbered specs, but without paragraph numbers. Look for the tool under the single-file formatting tool, document format.