| Author |
Message |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 10:29 am: |    |
Does CSI differentiate between specifications for residential use projects versus commercial use? A recent mixed use project was contracted for specifications for delivery of one Project Manual to cover all specifications for the project. None of the consultant specs differentiated between residential or commercial use.
My client (the architect) has received a complaint from his client (the Developer) that the commercial part of the project should have included "commercial Specifications".
To set the record straight, I've never issued specifications for residential use only. I am curious if CSI or any other recognized Construction Industry Group differentiates between residential and commercial work? Of course we take into consideration the commercial use of portions of the building/project, and specifiy accordingly. |
Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 11:39 am: | |
Specifications are specifications--it doesn't matter what you're specifying. It could be a door within a residential unit or a door within an office building. If you use CSI's formats to organize and present the information, you have a specification: commercial, residential, whatever.
I'd have your client ask the developer what they understand to be the difference. My guess is that they have no clue.
I've prepared many specifications for mixed-use multi-unit residential projects and I've never had separate "commercial" and "residential" specifications. Some sections specify work results for only the residential portion and some only for the commercial portion, but the only way someone would confirm where they are installed is by looking at the drawings--the drawing tell the contractor where everything you specified is located within the project.
Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 934
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 12:07 pm: | |
I concur with Ron entirely.
The major percentage of our practice since about 2004 or so has been residential, and almost all of that has been mixed used. I have never had a consultant for MEP or interiors ever intend to differentiate in the manner this developer seems to be asking. And I have never had a developer ask the question either. That's a huge number of projects spread across the country in many regions which have local peculiar "preferences", but never this.
If you simply look at the organization of MasterFormat, you see no such differentiation. Toilet accessories are toilet accessories. Sure there might be different products in the residential units vs amenity areas vs commercial area public restrooms. But that's just a keynote or item designation that differentiate what goes where.
Same for everything else.
William
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate
WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 12:52 pm: | |
Ron, William, I agree, however I need to respond to the client, the reference to Masterspec might be enough, its odd because the developer is supposed to be an experienced developer of national status. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 01:00 pm: | |
Actually I meant Masterformat.
On the occasion where we do prepare specs for a multi-building project w/different uses, ie an apartment development with a centralized trash compactor, we might designate a special spec section for Specialties/Equipment only to be used in that building.
After writing specs for 25 years independently, I thought I'd heard them all, but than again this is why I say there is never a dull moment in my business. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 01:07 pm: | |
Thanks Ron & William for posting on a Sunday, I need to respond by tomorrow morning 9am. |
David E Lorenzini
Senior Member
Username: deloren
Post Number: 168
Registered: 04-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 01:12 pm: | |
As stated, specifications are what you write, but it may be that the developer is looking for a different format. To him, book specs may mean commercial, and sheet specs may mean residential. He may also be looking for specs with low quality assurance requirements for residential specs so he can have more freedom. Also, short form book specs may work for some residential projects. You may want to ask him to send you a sample of the format he is referring to.
David Lorenzini, FCSI, CCS
Architectural Resources Co. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 578
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 01:22 pm: | |
But Jerome stated there was to be one project manual for the project, to cover both commercial and residential work. I'd agree with the earlier comment that the developer is looking for lesser standards or lower quality for the residential portion of the project--but that probably is just my cynicism speaking. |
Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP
Senior Member
Username: rich_gonser
Post Number: 101
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 01:41 pm: | |
Another possible is they are looking for different products and finishes.
Such as level 5 gyp finishes versus level 4 with a spray applied "orange peel" finish.
Casework is manufactured types in production housing, not Architectural custom grade.
Toilet accessories are not American Specialties, Bobrick or Bradley stainless steel. They can be what's cheap and on sale.
It all depends on the nature of the project. Downtown New York high-rise apartment or a 3-5 story wood structure on top of a Type I/II concrete parking deck or retail first floor.
In the clients mind, this may be where the distinction is. You just need to bring out your inner psychic. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1317
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 02:22 pm: | |
Dave, you are on the money, this developer apparently did not want to use specifications, but the architect insisted (surprise, surprise).
Richard prior to preparing the agreement I asked the architect if there would be any difference between materials in the commercial vs the residential, I was told no and that is why I priced the job as one Project Manual. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 02:25 pm: | |
I've been working with this Architect for over 20 years, they get my best pricing as they are repeat customers and there are few major surprises...perhaps I should say they are usually a pleasure to work with....and they usually respect what I do and what I bring to the table. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 02:36 pm: | |
There is also the problem of clients wanting less specs than more, Richard if I need to specify a different Gypsum Finish Level that is easily done in one spec section, no need for a separate section or two separate manuals. The only time I would insist on it if the construction phasing was different, but the entire project is being built at one time. |
Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP
Senior Member
Username: rich_gonser
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 04:08 pm: | |
Jerome, Like a traveling stage psychic, I'm just trying to read between the lines to divine an answer as to what is in the client mind.
Obviously, we are all guessing.
Likely the client project manager comes from production housing and does not understand what it is we do.
Here is an opportunity to teach, if they're willing to learn. |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener
Post Number: 741
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 - 12:41 pm: | |
In one sense, there are specifications unique for various project types, such as residential, commercial tenant improvements, out-patient medical/dental facilities, in-patient medical facilities, educational facilities and so forth. That is, the products are specified in a manner specific to the project occupancy and use.
The style of writing may also vary according to occupancy and use. I believe the determining factor is intensity of necessary documentation for permitting and bidding. A TI project or a residence might suffice with concise information (shortform specs). A public school or "monumental" project may require highly-detailed specs.
To me, it's where the 'art of specifying' gets expressed. "One size fits all" specs, especially manufacturer-produced specs, usualy require substantial editing because they over- or under-specify products. The specifier's judgment must be applied and the scope and style of the specification adapted to the appropriate level of detail for the project.
When the specifier specializes in certain project types, the specifier's master or prototypical specifications become reflective of frequent project types.
The interpretive key is application of the 4 C's: Clear, Correct, Complete and Concise to suit the project. How complete? How concise? |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 - 04:14 pm: | |
John writes, "'One size fits all' specs, especially manufacturer-produced specs, usualy require substantial editing because they over- or under-specify products."
When considering the need for editing, I differentiate between a manufacturer's guide spec that aims to specify their "product" and one that is a tool for specifying your "project". Either can need substantial editing. However, a well written manufacturer-produced section makes it easier for the design professional to edit to suit the project.
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
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