Using ASTM Standards in Submittals

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1303 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 01:26 pm:    Is a GC/Subcontractor allowed to include in the actual submittal pages from the actual Standard referenced, in this case the submittal included pages from an ASTM standard? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1409 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 01:42 pm:    Jerome, Can you please be more specific? I can not think of an instance where ASTM standards would be required in a submittal or even necessary. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1304 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 01:52 pm:    David, the job is a private multi-family apartment project, the GC's submittal included pages from ASTM, the architect reached out to me and asked if this was legal - can a manufacturer use portions of an ASTM Standard in a submittal? Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 653 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 02:01 pm:    Are you thinking about it in terms of copyright issues? If so, perhaps. I'm really not sure. But personally, I'd be thrilled if a contractor was familiar enough with an ASTM testing method as to actually have a copy! On a recent OSHPD project (California hospital authority), we had a particular ASTM method specified on the TIO (testing & inspection checklist) that didn't match what the mfr wanted to use, and we had to process a change order through OSHPD to revise the TIO to ammend the ASTM. What a hassle. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2014 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 02:10 pm:    I suppose if s/he's purchased the standard, there's no issue with it. We have an on-line subscription that allows downloading and printing. But I'm not sure why it would be part of a submittal. What was required for the submittal? J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 826 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 02:44 pm:    The last time I saw an ASTM standard included in a submittal, it was with a plaster submittal but the publication was out of date (more than 20 years old). David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:30 pm:    If I received a submittal or a portion of one that I did not ask for, I would return it to the contractor without action. I don't want to get tangled up in approving unsolicited stuff, even if it is current information. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1305 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:40 pm:    Lynn, I am looking into this as a favor to an architect, there were no specs on the job, so I do not know what was expected. In my jobs I ask for a letter from the manufacturer certifying that the materials to be used meet the standards specified, I expect those standards to be listed, I don't expect to receive page 3 of a standard as part of the submittal. David, I agree with you, But than the GC claims the Architect is being petty and delaying the job, even when specs are being included, which unfortunately seems to be less and less in the private sector. BTW, Peter this is by coincidence a Plaster submittal. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2016 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:46 pm:    If there were no specs on the job, then I guess no submittals are formally required. I suppose the contractor is stating the work will be done per the ASTM standard? (It is a standard, and not one of the other types of ASTM documents?) Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1306 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:58 pm:    There were no specs, but the GC signed an AIA A201 which does discuss submittals. I doubt any of the parties involved had a license from ASTM, if they did they would have sent the entire Standard, instead of just one page. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 06:37 pm:    Every ASTM Standard I have seen has a copyright notice. You may want to address the question to ASTM. I am curious. What is the contractor trying to do by sending the standard? Is contractor claiming that his work will meet the standard? Why not just issue a reference to the spec. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1307 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 10:25 pm:    Michael, those are good questions, unfortunately I can not ask them as I am not officially working on this project, just helping a client. I am not in a position to reach out to ASTM, however I have advised the Architect of what I believe to be an error by the GC, this is similar to the problem I have had in the past where contractors copy my specs and issue them as part of their submittals. Fortunately I include this in all my agreements, and to date have not seen any litigation from noncompliant contractors. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 853 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 11:23 pm:    From the ASTM license agreement: "Licensee may access and download an electronic file of a Document (or portion of a Document) for temporary storage on one computer for purposes of viewing, and/or printing one copy of a Document for individual use. Neither the electronic file nor the single hard copy print may be reproduced in any way. In addition, the electronic file may not be distributed elsewhere over computer networks or otherwise. That is, the electronic file cannot be e mailed, downloaded to disk, copied to another hard drive or otherwise shared. The single hard copy print may only be distributed to others for their internal use within your organization; it may not be copied." Agreements for online, disk, and hardcopy versions are similar. I understand that ASTM doesn't want people sending their work to others, but this is silly, and that's the way it is. They may have site licenses or some other option, but if you have the basic product, your choices are: Cary your single hardcopy around with you. Set up a computer everyone can use to look at the standards. Load it on, or access it from, your tablet (if possible). Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 729 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 01:29 pm:    Providing a physical copy of the standard is not helpful unless the contractor is proposing the use of a standard not referenced. If there are no specifications then apparently there are no standards for the work. In this context if the contractor submits the standards of the work he is proposing to comply with and the architect suggests a change I would think the contractor has a reason to request a change order. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 477 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 06:48 pm:    One reason to submit ASTM pages might be if you were intending do work conforming to expired or withdrawn standards. This could happen in historical restoration work where the building technology in question is almost or completely extinct. We had something similar where we were doing work in a building with wire mesh lath and plaster interior walls.