NAMING MANUFACTURER OPTIONS

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Author Message Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 738 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:07 pm:    I am seeking opinions as to favored methods for specifying manufacturer names for commodity products. Not one-off products. Option 1: Hilti, Inc., (Tulsa, Oklahoma; 800-879-8000; <local source name and phone #>; www.us.hilti.com) Option 2: Hilti, Inc., (Tulsa, Oklahoma; 800-879-8000; www.us.hilti.com) Option 3 (my favorite): Hilti, Inc., (www.us.hilti.com) Is it too much to require the bidders to go to the manufacturers website to source suppliers/reps, etc per zip code or city/ state? Just wondering? Thanks, Wayne Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2003 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:12 pm:    I agree with you; #3 is the cleanest. (Isn't that one of the CSI "C"s - Clear, Concise, Complete, Correct, and Clean?) The only time I list a contact / source name is when a Designer requests it because a particular individual has helped with a selection / product and understands the requirements and the project. Then it's helpful to the bidders / contractors. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 897 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:18 pm:    Wow, you guys are a lot nicer than I am. I just list the product and manufacturer and pretend that someone that is supposed to be knowledgeable in the work they're doing can find them. Otherwise I agree with Lynn. I follow the same rule of thumb (and yes, when I am having a weak moment I occasionally include websites in the manufacturer listings). Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 218 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:23 pm:    I'm with Ken, I occasionally add web addresses, but I'm not going to do all that for them. If it's a specialty item that they need to contact a specific rep for, then I will give their name and contact info. It's hard enough to keep up with company name changes, much less phone numbers and addresses. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2004 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:26 pm:    SpecLink provides the website almost all the time (if not all the time) and for additional manufacturers, since I'm probably on the website to get information, it's a simple thing to copy / paste that address. Since it's where I get most of my initial information, I figure I can do the bidders / contractors a bit of a service. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 739 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:31 pm:    Keeping track of product rep job hoping is an exercise in futility. Mike from Mutual Materials becomes Mike with G-P. After awhile I lose track of Mike. Then Mike pops up with an new employer and product. As Curt says, "It is hard enough . . . ." I agree with Lynn 2nd comment. This has become good manners when the project is across the country but my sources are local. Bill Coady CSI, CCPR Senior Member Username: billcoady Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2006 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:42 pm:    While I appreciate it when a spec has my company, my website, and occasionally even my name, phone, and email, I understand the direction of this conversation. I think the spec should list the correct company name and if possible the website. All other information is nice but not necessary and prone to change. I don't think product reps are any more prone to moving from firm to firm than architects and spec writers are but people do move. I've been in the fenestration industry for 35 years and worked for 3 companies, the current one is 10+ years, but at some point I'll be gone and a new rep will replace me. Your spec should list the company and in an effort to be clear, concise, complete, and correct, perhaps the website. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2005 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:47 pm:    As Wayne stated at 2:31, "when the project is across the country" it becomes an issue. I almost never have a project in Wisconsin, much less in Madison. So the rep I work with probably does not cover the territory where the project is located. (Hint to companies: my zip code to reach the correct rep is a ridiculous requirement). Michael Chusid Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:49 pm:    Manufacturers can have similar names. As I recall, there are two "Henry" companies, and several "Nortons". Another scenario is the company that changes name. A contractor may recognize "LCN" but not "Aligion". Using a website or other identifier helps to reduce confusion. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 174 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:50 pm:    I generally include phone number & web address. Part of the specifier's charge, as I see it, is to facilitate the bidding & procurement process. I generally have both pieces of info or can get them easily. If necessary to track them down, my little investment of time presumably provides value to everyone scrambling to to bid or buy out the job. Jeff Wilson Wilson Consulting Inc Narberth PA J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 822 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:54 pm:    On more than a few occasions, I have gone to a manufacturer's website to find the "legal name" of the company only to find that there is none listed. They may have a picture of their manufacturing plant, details out the wahzoo, but nowhere does it list the name of their company. This is complicated when they are pushing a brand really hard and everyone wants Abc product but no one can tell you who makes it. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:56 pm:    Peter, that's when I look at the bottom to see who has the copyright on the webpage. That's a good clue. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2006 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:58 pm:    Frequently, when that happens, I'll click on "Contact Us" and the name usually appears. But, yes, many manufacturers are so enamored of "the INTERNET" that they fail to provide normal information. And that can be a problem when the manufacturer changes names, too. There's one particular manufacturer of laboratory equipment and casework that changed its name about 4 or 5 times in the past few years. Made it very difficult to specify - "What's the name they're using this month?" William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 929 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:00 pm:    And if not there, download or review some pdf or online brochures and check the name in front of the copyright there as well. Usually at the bottom of the page, or on the last page - though some still don't list their name, or list some shorthand variant of their name. Sometimes you can also google the name and get a response that shows the company name, sometimes a wikipedia search will turn up things. But there is a limit to what I can endure to where I just put in what seems apparent. After all, if they don't care who they are ...! William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 219 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:01 pm:    I appreciate the fact that Speclink includes websites and it is nice to have, but some companies are so large that their website is nearly worthless. A Google search is probably faster. Besides, how often are products purchased from a manufacture unless the contractor has an ongoing relationship with them (think roofing and waterproofing). Contractors normally call up their typical vendors to get one of the products listed in the spec. Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:08 pm:    I second Peter's comment. I have been frustrated many times by a manufacturer's refusal to identify its actual company name. And also its address. Sometimes they just aren't on the website. And yes, I have sometimes searched extensively, even for a copyright notice. It's perhaps even more frustrating than cryptic, non-descriptive or even misleading trade names. I want to know: "What IS this, really?" "What company makes it?" "Where is it based?" (and sometimes, "Is this part of another company?") Branding hubris... Michael Chusid Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:15 pm:    Websites that do not post manufacturer information are usually (but not always) products that are sold through retail or distributors. The manufacturer may not want to be bothered by calls from pesky customers or specifiers. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 724 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 05:25 pm:    It depends. If it is a common product line that trades can be expected to be aware of just provide manufacture name and the specific product. If we are talking about a manufacture that the likely subcontractor cannot be expected to be aware of then it is appropriate to provide some additional information. If you as the designer do not know how to contact the manufacturer or his representative then I would reconsider the decision to specify the product. In writing specifications the intent is to promote the interests of our client not to do the bidders/contractors a bit of a service. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 851 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 06:32 pm:    Proper company name, city, and state; no phone number, no URL. If you're bidding a section, you should recognize the companies; if not, you should be able to find them online. If not, do I want you working on my project? Exception: When we get the occasional oddball thing I'll add more contact information - especially if it took me a couple of hours to track it down! URLs and phone numbers do change, so it's more to keep track of. Not so much with the big companies, but the bidders probably don't need help with them anyway. Our interiors group loves to put in the name of the rep they're working with. Good or bad? If you're relying on a specific rep to know exactly what you want, instead of specifying it, you're putting someone in a bad spot. Also, in steering bidders toward a specific source, you could be missing a better price, even from another rep with the same company. Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 167 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 06:48 pm:    Speaking of interior finishes (where products may be sole sourced to a manufacturer due to design, pattern etc.), the contact you use for your information could affect manufacturer's pricing to various subs. In flooring, for example, if you rely on a rep from distributor or installation company for samples, etc., they can register the job with the manufacturer to get more favorable pricing than their competitors, which may virtually guarantee they get the job. In fact, that's the purpose--manufacturers want to favor whoever is bringing them customers, and I can understand that. Dealing directly with the manufacturer's own reps only (not with local flooring companies) may help avoid that, and promote a more level playing field among installers/subs, but I have been told that even then, a manufacturer's rep may well have ways to favor one sub-bidder over another. So in some ways, even what we thought was left of "competitive bidding" (among subs, for installed products) may be an illusion... Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 852 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 11:20 pm:    Competitive bidding is an illusion... Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2007 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 09:42 am:    Or a delusion Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 271 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 09:49 am:    We usually don't list more than the manufacturer's name in our specifications, except for the following: 1. Interiors person or Owner insists we include rep's contact information. This is common for retail work. 2. Manufacturer has really common name that makes internet searching difficult, like "custom windows" or "architectural wood". In the era of 4specs.com, do we really need to list websites for everything? Does everyone do this, or just the specifiers posting so far? - Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 11:08 am:    Lisa, I almost never list more than manufacturer's name (and product), except for a few rare situations similar to those on your list. Anonymous (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 11:12 am:    Option 4: Hilti, Inc. Does putting a representative's name in the spec make sourcing the product from that representative part of the contract? Does listing a phone number or website mean that the contractor must dial that number or visit that page to comply with the contract documents? Do you state that phone numbers and addresses and representative names are for information only in Div 01? -Keep it clear; We want products from Hilti, Inc. -Keep it concise; Manufacturer is all the contractor needs to know to do their job. -Keep it complete; Don't rely on the listing of a representative to get certain things because they are familiar with what the designers want. -Keep it correct; As has been stated before, websites change, representatives change, phone numbers change, etc. Rarely is Hilti, Inc. going to change without you knowing about it. Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 12:29 pm:    I agree with a lot of these comments from all sides. However, I use BSD Speclink-e and their masters begin with the company websites listed. To me that is the most efficient way. What we as a group have to recognize is that it is the Architect of Record/project team that selects the products not the contractor. For commodity products, the website can be superfluous. One point I heard at a recent presentation; we have to consider is that more products have been introduced in the last ten years than the entire history of construction. The contractor needs to know how to find these new specialty products. Sometimes they don't have a website. Other times a search does not produce a result even when you know the correct product or company name. Another point companies have been merged and bought out. Websites will generally link to the new one. Products get dropped and changed. The project Architects and team use our links to look up products. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1404 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 02:16 pm:    I used to work with a specifier who put the company name and website along with the representative’s name, phone number and email address in every section. The reps loved seeing their name in print. The contractors loved not having to look up the contact information. The architects loved it too. But with all double-edged swords, the other side was equally as sharp. The contact information became quickly out of date. I would get annoying emails and calls such as, "Frank's number is disconnected what is his new number?" "I called Joe and he no longer represents that product." "Sally's email bounced back." “The company’s website link is not working.” Sometimes I spent more time updating contact information than I did writing specifications. I searched my big box of loose business cards and two full rolodexes only to find I mostly had out of date cards. Sometimes I found a card for a rep’s current and all past companies. I would check product binders (remember those?) only to find yet another out of date contact. I would check the company website only to have to fill out an online form or the site would only list top executives instead of local representatives. Why isn’t there one place that has current representative information? That way I can concentrate on writing specifications. If this site was accessible to everyone, then I would not waste time answering questions about contact information. Others could easily look the information up. Since there was no such a website, so I had to create my own. Thus was born “Local Product Reps” website (www.localproductreps.com). This site is far from complete but is a good start. My goal is that this site will grow to be the source for product rep contact information. My website will benefit everyone involved in the construction industry. As always, your ideas are appreciated. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 03:02 pm:    "...more products have been introduced in the last ten years than the entire history of construction." Richard, do you recall where you heard that statement, or its ultimate source? (I believe it, and I'd like to use it, but I'd like to be able to cite a reference...) Thanks. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1406 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 03:17 pm:    Robert, Check with Marc Chavez. Marc was the first one I heard say that quote. BTW, I saw Marc give a report where he graphed water barrier products and their dates of introduction into the market place. The curve was exponential. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 03:34 pm:    Ultimate source... I don't know. This was from a presentation made at the LA CSI dinner meeting by Barry Taheri, principal of California Consultants CaliforniaConsultants1@gmail.com. His PowerPoint doesn't list a source. I have to say this is quite believable. Just look at how Colin has been having to keep his website updated! Michael Chusid Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 04:06 pm:    The exponential increase in building product types was recognized at least as long ago as the early 1970s. I still have the book in which this was published and will let you know the citation when I find it. The curve began in prehistoric times where innovations, like mixing fiber in mud or using dung to tan hides, took generations to become accepted practice. The establishment of fixed habitations with the beginning of agriculture necessitated new materials and allowed the specialization into crafts. The industrial revolution, along with the scientific method and corporations, continued the curve. Now, it is a challenge to use the same product from one year to the next. I offer a presentation that is ideal for CSI chapters and regions called, "Mis-underestimating the Future" where I take current headlines from scientific journals and predict how construction will change. Consider this week's news: Advances in "invisibility": http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150430113534.htm Human/building interfaces: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150429101044.htm Bi-pedal construction robots: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2015/apr/walking-robot.cfm Window glass with LCD built into it: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2015/apr/semi-transparent-windows.cfm Hang on, its going to be a fast ride. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2015 - 04:43 pm:    David, what you are describing is what we call "job security." You know, us old timers need to do something to justify our existence. None of us actually wants to architect anything... That is a verb, right?