| Author |
Message |
Vivian Volz, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: vivianvolz
Post Number: 146
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 08:05 pm: |    |
I've got several projects with exposed overhead structure and services and only clouds of ceiling. The clients want the miscellaneous supports and conduits and pipes and so forth to be neat, square, straight... And for one of these jobs, I don't control Division One, so I don't get to just say it once. Is there a good concise, enforceable way to say "neat and tidy"?
Oh, and just to make it harder, the structural system of one job is radial, not square. The curve is gentle enough to get away with making stuff parallel/perpendicular to nearest beam or wall, but it's not all one big happy grid.
Would dearly love some suggestions. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 556
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 08:32 pm: | |
Of course, "neat and tidy" wants to be grouped with "first class workmanship, done to the satisfaction of the architect". But you already know that.
Because this is a visual issue, I'd suggest covering it was a big boxed note on the drawings--probably the reflected ceiling plans. And have notes on the applicable MPE drawings referring to the RCP note. The RCP note should use the terms you did--"square", "straight", parallel/perpendicular to nearest beam or wall", etc. The point is to limit the note to wording that is quantifiable and therefore enforceable. Maybe also have typical details illustrating the desired work results. |
Michael Heinsdorf, P.E.
Senior Member
Username: michael_heinsdorf_pe
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 08:40 pm: | |
NECA 1 is the standard for Good Workmanship in Electrical Contracting. I use it as a reference for Divisions 26, 27, and 28 - it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that it covers neat and orderly conduit and cable tray routing.
Radial structural system with a gentle curve - is the building in California? |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 784
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 09:34 pm: | |
Whoever does control Division 01 probably require Coordination Drawings. Have the respective subcontractors draw what they are intending to do before they do it, and have the contractor or CM coordinate it, and let the designer review it. |
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza
Post Number: 553
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 08:28 am: | |
Vivian: I have a sermon on the topic of the architect not controlling Division 01, but you probably do as well. Portions of Division 01 are germane to the practice of architecture and should never be fully abandoned to the CM by the architect. Maybe you can take your architect to lunch and explain. |
Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wilsonconsulting
Post Number: 162
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 10:57 am: | |
I'm with Dave Metzger -- Dwgs are the more powerful location for these types of provisions. Even if you had control of Div 01, there could be considerable cajoling to direct users' attention to these types of provisions in the specs, where they could be easily overlooked.
I have been involved in projects w/ these types of conditions, too, and it is essential that the architect include representative details to alert tradespeople to the expectations, as Dave suggests.
Jeff Wilson
Wilson Consulting Inc
Narberth PA |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 11:05 am: | |
Dave, what do you think you are doing?
You're on vacation, no time to post, you should be enjoying the sun and skinny dipping by now.
Stop looking at 4specs, there's fun to be had, no snow for you my friend. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 557
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 11:10 am: | |
Jerome,
When you're retired, every day is a vacation. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 11:18 am: | |
Nice, rub it in, nice guy....I may never retire, having too much 'fun' writing specs for my crazy clients....while you are in my state, enjoy the weather, winter ain't done yet, didn't the ground hog see his shadow? the snow hasn't stopped falling yet in your town, but if you are bored I can send you to a high rise project for some real fun. |
Vivian Volz, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: vivianvolz
Post Number: 147
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 12:27 pm: | |
Michael: Why yes, yes, it is in California.
Michael again: Thank you for the NECA reference! I'll see what they say.
Phil: Amen, brother. This particular Division One belongs to the client and is in the dreaded five digit format, so while we can request and suggest changes to it, they take a long time to implement. We pick our battles.
Jeffrey and Dave: Good points about drawings saying this stuff. I'll certainly provide the chosen language to the architect for the RCP. And details, yes, also a very good idea.
Retirees and Vacationers: Pthhhpppt. ;-) |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 464
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:06 pm: | |
Random thoughts to add to the good responses. Also, if I glance upwards I see the exposed structure and EQ after we stripped out all of the drop ceilings in our mid-century modern office.
A Mock Up might be very valuable. Sequencing may be different than it would be for concealed work, as in painting before ductwork, etc.
If I really wanted to indulge in creative writing, I might consider creating a 21, 22, 23, and so on XX 05 05 - Common Work Results for Exposed to View XX. If you have the ability add a master Section to DIV 01, those could just be one pagers sending you there.
Painting is a big part of this. You may be tasked with getting paint decently applied to a lot of different surfaces, some of which do not like paint. |
Vivian Volz, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: vivianvolz
Post Number: 148
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:15 pm: | |
We're gonna try this note. Suggestions are welcome for making it clearer and more concise.
Exposed work shall comply with NECA-1, including fire-protection, HVAC, and framing. Align work with adjacent suspended ceiling assemblies, lighting fixtures, beams, or partitions. Diagonal bracing shall be at consistent angles and confined within footprint of suspended ceiling assemblies. |
Michael Heinsdorf, P.E.
Senior Member
Username: michael_heinsdorf_pe
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2014
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:40 pm: | |
That's NECA, not NEMA. Considering that it is a standard for contractors written by contractor's (it is an ANSI standard, so it was consensus based), it's not that bad. Language is a little weak, but overall, it has worked decently in the electrical world, which runs a lot of exposed conduit. Here is a link to NECA 1: http://apps.necanet.org/store/products/index.cfm/NECA%201-10
Took a look at NECA 1, and it addresses your issue in a couple places:
"Equipment shall be level, plumb and true with the structure and other equipment; also in a horizontal or vertical position as intended."
"Exposed raceways shall be run parallel and perpendicular to the building surface or exposed structural members and follow the surface contours as much as practical to present a neat appearance."
Coordinate anything you do with the electrical engineer, who probably already notes on the drawings regarding conduit runs. Likely the mechanical engineer has or will do the same.
If you have anything to do with product selection for electrical - use IMC or RMC conduit. Stay away from EMT. EMT is easier to install, but needs to be supported every three feet versus every ten and uses set screw couplings instead of threaded couplings. In my opinion, threaded couplings look better.
Radial structural - there's one several billion dollar project in CA that immediately to mind. |
Liz O'Sullivan
Senior Member
Username: liz_osullivan
Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:42 pm: | |
Sometimes instead of "exposed work" I say something like "interior work exposed to view in finished construction."
This may be too wordy, or it may be just descriptive enough. |
Vivian Volz, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: vivianvolz
Post Number: 150
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:48 pm: | |
Thanks, Michael, that NECA standard is a steal at $40, so I sprang for a copy. As for the project, we're just filling in all the interstitial spaces in a building primarily for another use... I imagine you're thinking of a building in the right weight class, but perhaps not the same building.
Thanks, Liz, I do that, too, but all the work on this particular project is interior, so I'm able to cut a bit out. |
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