What are my options?

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1233 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 10:39 am:    I am being forced to specify an exterior finish on a Florida Condominium high rise that has no track record of past use (in Florida) nor does it have a current industry standard to follow for the application of the product. I have advised the architect (my client) that I do not recommend the product, but the Architect is in love with the "look". Any suggestions as to my options as I move forward to complete the specifications for the project. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1283 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 10:58 am:    He seals the drawings. Document your objection and specify what he wants. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 709 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 11:10 am:    It is true, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You have done your duty, in writing I assume. Complete the spec. I have a question for you. We were recently educated on a wonder drug, I mean product, by the name of Thermocromex. Big in Florida apparently. Do you have experience with this product and is it everything is touted to be? Thanks, Wayne Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1234 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 12:50 pm:    Wayne, that is the product I am objecting to in the original post. Thermocromex is not big in Florida, I know many of the jobs its been used on and the Rep is very good at stretching the truth. I've talked to several of the architects on those projects, they won't be repeat customers. The rep has tried to get me to specify it voluntarily, I have refused. It certainly looks pretty once installed, but there are too many problems with application. I'll try and post more of what I know later, I'm on my way to a meeting. Perhaps others have used it and can advise their experiences. BTW, I was introduced to Thermocromex on a project in Abu Dhabi being applied over aerated concrete panels. Couldn't ask for a better substrate. BTW, a recent quote came in at 3x the cost of stucco. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 621 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 01:40 pm:    Reading their website, it does seem like "wonderous" material. Looking at their recommended standard details, it's basically just plaster (http://thermocromex.com/appdetails1.html) If you detailed the exterior wall assembly as plaster, with proper air & vapor systems for your area, what's the major issue? Limestone plaster is not really "new" in the grand scheme of things. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1284 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 01:44 pm:    I love the statement on their website: "Thermocromex is eligible for 44 LEED points in 9 categories..." Therefore, just use their product and that alone will get your project LEED certified. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 02:19 pm:    We recently had a lunch'n'learn presentation on Thermochromex, which I had never heard of until then. Other than its cryptic and pretentious tradename, which I think is a serious self-imposed wound, it seemed to be a good product. As Nathan says, "it's basically just plaster." But it is, apparently, a uniquely different kind of plaster, consisting largely of ground-up limestone (perhaps one particular type of limestone), with minor additions; it is definitely NOT Portland cement plaster, gypsum plaster, or even lime plaster. It has been manufactured (I believe) for over a century in France, so it's certainly not new, and it does have a track record in Europe. Advantage(s) claimed: enough "give" not to crack or need joints (compared to conventional PC stucco)--but the acknowledged downside is that it takes much longer to set and fully cure (days, if not weeks, IIRC). Though I have no idea how it would fare in a Florida environment, especially near the coast or in a high rise, those could be the very reasons why it would not work well there. The 3x cost premium may have to do with transportation (if manufactured only in France, that would cost a lot more than for domestic sand and cement) but it could also be due to its being, in the U.S. at least, unique--literally in a class by itself. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1235 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 03:15 pm:    One of the reasons why architects are embracing Thermocromex in Florida is due to the many failures of conventional cement plaster(stucco) systems. They are looking for alternative solutions, without realizing its not the material that is the problem but rather the application of the material. The simplest way I can explain this is that the application of stucco is being rushed, too many short cuts are being taken, steps to ensure quality are being side stepped, and serious mistakes are being made even with ASTM C926 adopted by the Florida Building Code. I am concerned that Thermocromex is being accepted as a way to finish the exterior of Florida building without meeting the requirements of ASTM C926 which does not apply to Thermocromex. Yes there are some aesthetic advantages to Thermocromex, but at what cost to performance. Perhaps only time will tell. Thermocromex is spending the bucks on dog and pony shows, even bringing in the big guns from France, and I expect that the only ones who will prosper from all of this will be the condo lawyers during future litigation. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 710 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 04:49 pm:    The only source in the world for the limestone is France. There goes the 500K / 500 mile credit. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 711 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 04:50 pm:    I meant 800k anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 02:38 pm:    you could ask these folks, they have been very helpful to me in the past with information about lime rendered walls: http://www.americanlimetechnology.com/baumit-lime-stucco/ Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 67 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 08:03 am:    Reading their "technical" webpage, it looks like the material is calcined from a naturally occurring limestone deposit, forming a "natural" hydraulic lime. If you have the bucks, it may be an improvement over ordinary lime plaster ("render" in the UK). Ordinary lime plaster has been successfully used for thousands of years. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1391 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, March 09, 2015 - 07:52 pm:    love their 1000 year life-cycle analysis... Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 565 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, March 09, 2015 - 09:06 pm:    1000 year life cycle analysis?!!? As Tom Lehrer wrote in "We Will All Go Together When We Go": No one will have the endurance To collect on his insurance, Lloyd's of london will be loaded when they go.